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 Post subject: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:58 am 
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Maiko-san
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Check this out. the October 2009 edition of 'Women's Day' magazine published a short 'how-to' about Kanazashi! Here's to hoping the article sparks some new interest! Below is the scan of the article from my magazine.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:02 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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I saw the book in border's and the flower on the front cover was pretty uneven. I stared for a bit.

I mean, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be a dick here.

It's just - if you're gonna act all professional and publish a book about it,

1. Make sure your stuff is -really- good.

2. If it isn't, don't slap it on the front cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:04 am 
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Maiko-san
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Lenneth wrote:
I saw the book in border's and the flower on the front cover was pretty uneven. I stared for a bit.

I mean, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be a dick here.

It's just - if you're gonna act all professional and publish a book about it,

1. Make sure your stuff is -really- good.

2. If it isn't, don't slap it on the front cover.


That's a shame. In the very least, it is nice to see some of these classical arts get coverage.

I honestly think some of our own IGers should get their work published through a house. The process is not overly complicated.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:07 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Yeah - especially golden_phoenix. Her work is the epitome of perfection.

They also said these were cut and pinned into shape, which means the methods are a bit, well, off.

And since it IS getting national coverage, it's sad that people are going to think that's the correct method. People like golden_phoenix and the other talented members here are going to get less business, because everyone's going to be doing it now. It'll be a fad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:22 am 
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Maiko-san
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Lenneth wrote:
Yeah - especially golden_phoenix. Her work is the epitome of perfection.

They also said these were cut and pinned into shape, which means the methods are a bit, well, off.

And since it IS getting national coverage, it's sad that people are going to think that's the correct method. People like golden_phoenix and the other talented members here are going to get less business, because everyone's going to be doing it now. It'll be a fad thing.


That is a particularly dark picture you paint.

The style and art of making fabric flowers has long existed in several cultures regardless of our commonly cited founding in Japan. As such, there are different styles, and methods used to make them....be they historical or not.

In hobbies, the key is fun. This is being marketed as a hobby..which in the modern world, is what it is: a hobby. Some people make money on the side, and take their hobby into levels of professional skill and beauty. No, the methods might not be elite enough for some people..but it is still a gate way to opening minds and interests.

The works of the higher end persons here, will be sold or not regards of fads. No common fad interest can rival true artistry, and skill. I think Golden and others are just fine, because lets face it...they really are amazing artists without many rivals. No fad can really touch that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:17 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Oh I know that, I just mean that I'm going to get tons of teenie boppers going, "I can do it since there's a tutorial in my mom's magazine! Like OMG I'm so much better than you!"

I don't think it'll be a big deal or matter very much in the -real- world, but in the convention scene, you're going to see a ton of people in artist alley all suddenly doing kanzashi - right method, wrong method, whatever. It's going to be -everywhere-. Golden Phoenix DOES sell at conventions, as do myself and I'm sure a few others.

For instance, my friend had her artwork essentially stolen. This person had taken her idea and started making the same thing (and selling them) in the same artist alley. When my friend arrived, this person got in her face, yelled, made a ruckus, made my friend cry, and tried to get her to leave.

Long story short? Brats ruin everything, really.

I just see a ton of kids taking this and getting an "elitist" attitude about it, that's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:27 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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Lenneth has a good point. Things like this becoming mainstream do affect the artists. People like Golden and Naomi produce works of art that takes several hours and are made from unusual or luxurious materials. When the market is glutted with people making cheap kanzashi from cheap materials, philistine buyers look at the work artists do and ask, "Why should I pay $25 for your kanzashi barrette when I can get one for $5 over there?" Of course, those of us who care about artistry can plainly see the craftsmanship and expensive materials, but others don't have such a discerning eye. Which is also why patently lopsided kanzashi can suddenly be on a crafting book cover.

ETA: I am not trying to say that cranking out some $5 kanzashi barrettes out of some cute cotton print is an inherently bad thing. I'm not suggesting that you have to be a purist and use silk and rice glue and sell your stuff for $50 each or something. I am certainly not saying one artist is better than another. I am just saying that competition is competition, whether your product is luxe or economy.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:49 am 
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Maiko-san
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Lenneth wrote:
Oh I know that, I just mean that I'm going to get tons of teenie boppers going, "I can do it since there's a tutorial in my mom's magazine! Like OMG I'm so much better than you!"

I don't think it'll be a big deal or matter very much in the -real- world, but in the convention scene, you're going to see a ton of people in artist alley all suddenly doing kanzashi - right method, wrong method, whatever. It's going to be -everywhere-. Golden Phoenix DOES sell at conventions, as do myself and I'm sure a few others.

For instance, my friend had her artwork essentially stolen. This person had taken her idea and started making the same thing (and selling them) in the same artist alley. When my friend arrived, this person got in her face, yelled, made a ruckus, made my friend cry, and tried to get her to leave.

Long story short? Brats ruin everything, really.

I just see a ton of kids taking this and getting an "elitist" attitude about it, that's all.


Well this sort of thing happens no matter what. Elitist attitudes suck, period - be you professional or amature it exists on all levels.

Art is meant to be shared and experianced. Casual hobbiests are by no means competition, certainly if they never knew such a thing existed before. Competition inspires innovation, and often promotes and drives an art forward.

There is no such thing as too much publicity. This is a common marketing rule.

Yes, more people will pick up the craft. Out of all those persons, maybe new artists who are amazing will sprout up? There is nothing bad with adding new artists to our community and talent pool - at one point in time even Pheonix was new. Everyone has to start somewhere...if this magazine and book is someones start...don't fault them.

Seriously, if someone can recreate the higher end works of professions such as Pheonix for $25 - they won't last. Under cutting manual artistian labor to that degree is damaging mostly to the business source it comes from. Also, if a person is on that tight of a budget to only afford lesser quality materials...then I don't think they are in the market to be affording professional goods.

Among the 'amature' community of this hobby, you really do not see an over inflation in stock that is under value. The fact is, anyone knows time and supplies are money. Selling 2 hours of work, and $3 in materials for only $5 is purely idiotic. You do not see much of this business behavior in the current market.

Its the difference between buying a REAL Coach purse, and a knock off for half the cost that falls apart in a week. Buyer beware - that comsumerism 101.


It's silly to not want new people to pick up the hobby, or be introduced to it if only to prevent market competition. Art, and hobbies are meant to be enjoyed and shared by all.

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Last edited by Atropos on Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:54 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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How cool!! =D I hope more people become interested in kanzashi. :]

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:06 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Oh, I don't mean that people shouldn't do it at all, I'm just dreading the jerks that come with it. I forgot to say that it comes with any hobby.

I've tried teaching people around here but noone's really interested.

Although the local Joann's store here wanted me to do a class, I just don't see too many people signing up for it, you know?

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:14 am 
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Maiko-san
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Lenneth wrote:
Oh, I don't mean that people shouldn't do it at all, I'm just dreading the jerks that come with it. I forgot to say that it comes with any hobby.

I've tried teaching people around here but noone's really interested.

Although the local Joann's store here wanted me to do a class, I just don't see too many people signing up for it, you know?



I'd so sign up for lessons >.<
/jealous

I'm gonna go buy this book and sell my my leetness for $2 !1!!one11one!! Bah. I use to be an event cordinator and classroom manager for the Michael's craft classrooms - you would be amazed as to what gets people to register. Before Michael's closed the program..we had everything from soap making, to basic scrapbooking.

I live in such a cultural wasteland :( . I grew up in the American Military, surrounded by culture, and arts....I remember watching this stuff being made as a kid by a mother for her kids. If only I knew then, what I knew now. There is not a class or cultural resource to find here beyond knitting.

If you wanted to market your skills, perhaps you should look to the high school and college level interest groups / clubs ?

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:51 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Well, I may indeed try to go for the class - see what happens. Don't you get paid to do it if you hold a class? or a percentage or something? Because that'd be fabulous 8-O

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:06 pm 
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Tayuu
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I'm lucky to live far away in a foreign-language-speaking country. 8-O

I can see 2 problems:
1) Everyone will do it. Not that I want to feel more unique than everyone else, but the people with which you come to interact are very different if you're doing something for it's own sake and from your own initiative, rather than because you're following a fad. Individuals versus followers, and the former are usually much more open and sensitive (or don't give a d*mn and mind their own business.)

2) As all fads, it will quickly pass, but the harm will be done and will remain. Not only will be people used to cheap stuff (in both ways,) but even persons potentially interested will likely categorize you as one of the fad-followers still trying to do more bucks with the one trick they managed to learn.

Of course, reality is more nuanced, but I can already foresee it... Did I mention I dislike fads?

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Here's the problem with citing this as a fad....several other books and publications have already covered this subject. Did all those other articles and publicatoins in the past herald all this supposed doom and gloom? No.


As for the workshop - yes. You get paid. At Michael's before they closed the program the instructors were paid $7 an hour. The more classes you book and have people attend, the more money you make. Student's also got an instore discount on their supplies.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Atropos wrote:
Here's the problem with citing this as a fad....several other books and publications have already covered this subject. Did all those other articles and publicatoins in the past herald all this supposed doom and gloom? No.


Oh, so you're just upset we decided to have this conversation in response to your particular post? Were you only hoping for squeeing and back-pats?

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:21 pm 
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THE LIFE CYCLE OF A FAD, OR HEPKITTY'S EXCELLENT POG ADVENTURE
You know what did get killed by amatures starting up their own version of a fad?

POGS.

Remember pogs? They were milk bottle caps that people started reproducing in the mid 90's, and turned into a game.
I worked at a music store that also sold comics, cards and pogs. I actually witnessed a fight between two adults over the last limited edition silk screened colloectors pog.

Anyway, average Joe saw that pogs were big money, so he started ordering them in giant quantities from China, and had them gold foil stamped, hologrammed and embossed to make them special. Everybody HAD to have them.
Then Average Sam saw Joe making $$$ so HE ordered his SILVER foil stampped hologram embossed pogs and everyone wanted Sam's pogs.

Pretty soon everyone was making their own pogs, the market was flooded and then the fad was over.
There are still a few pog collectors out there, and the pogs that ARE rare and special go for a lot of money.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Maiko-san
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bebemochi wrote:
Atropos wrote:
Here's the problem with citing this as a fad....several other books and publications have already covered this subject. Did all those other articles and publicatoins in the past herald all this supposed doom and gloom? No.


Oh, so you're just upset we decided to have this conversation in response to your particular post? Were you only hoping for squeeing and back-pats?



Upset? Not in the least. However, I find your comment is very rude and a unwarrented personal direct attack.

I am rather enjoying this discussion. My college major is business, I consider this a very interesting look into consumer/niche market perspectives. I am enjoying this discussion because it is insightful. I have no invested emotions in this discussion and respect those who do.

With any and every profession or hobby, there are teirs of craftsmen/serviceship. PoGs are a good example, however the quality and expense is wholely seperate - and on a different market level.

Also, in here lies the standard of marketing. To sell more of something - be it a good or service...you need promotion and marketing. You can have the best good on Earth but if no one knows about your good - it won't sell. In that lies the double edge sword for getting more sales....

If it is not acceptable to share Kanazashi and introduce it to more people, why would we even have a thread here for such? If new people learning about this particular art is so bad, why are tutorials so graciously offered by our resident experts? Are we not the market that commonly buys such goods? doesnt teaching IGs are other similar communities pose a problem? Get what I am saying? I hope I'm clear in trying to properly convey this idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Tayuu
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I think the main attacks here are directed towards the poor quality of the kanzashi in the article, and that its more widespread distribution than this one website means that will become the standard, with its consequences on quality, craftsmanship, and, yes, costs and such.

Many products can function with a double standard because they have an history and are settled in people's minds, so there are references of what a quality product is. Kanzashi don't, and my point was that the overwhelming majority of consumers will only ever be aware of the new kind. I don't assume every newly converted person will only make sh*t, but I do believe the general trend will go that way.

Why should people here be concerned, if thus goes the cycle of marketing? Because they have a personal interest in the matter, that's why! Many also take into account the ethics (in a very broad sense!) of their craft, along with making money. It is completely natural to fight fang and claw for your stuff. Of course, it doesn't imply any kind of cosmic justification or retribution in making the "good guys" win, but that's an additional reason to take care of their business themselves.
Thus the discussion! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:13 pm 
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Maiko-san
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A passion for ones hobbies is understandable and respectable. I know I am passionate about my interests.

All the same, since we are judging this book... what do we really know about this book? The pedals on the cover are not perfectly even. They use a few tatics and styles that are different.....and what else? Before we cry foul, and gloom/doom...why don't we take a more serious look at the book?

Really, we know so little. We assume so much.

Also, with many crafts and hobbies....there are different scales. This can be compared to painting - and the great many of mediums, styles, skills, and techniques. At one point, everyone is a beginner...over time the person improves, and generally encounters new and better techniques to mature their craft and art.

If people really want a quality book to come out, then ... why not publish one? I know I would love to buy a high quality book, if only for reference and artistic appreciation of the medium.


Is a high quality publication going to result in the same doom & gloom? It will mean more people are producing works of various grades of quality... Ultimately the quality of ones work, is up to the person. I do not think we are so mindless, as to not decide in our own works that the pedals should be even, or not.

Even from a quality publication, there will be beginners and starters who create and pose business competition. On that same merit, would it not spark the previously cited problems? A quality publciation to 'standards' would....just create the similar dark picture people invision for this book.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:02 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Atropos wrote:
However, I find your comment is very rude and a unwarrented personal direct attack.


Rude? Oh man. You haven't seen the half of it.
Unwarranted? Nope. You have to push me pretty far before I get up in your shit.

Atropos wrote:
Get what I am saying? I hope I'm clear in trying to properly convey this idea.


Nope. And this is the problem. Consistently.

Atropos wrote:
Really, we know so little. We assume so much.


Oh Jesus Pete. I give up, you win.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:18 pm 
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First Mate Boobie-san (Mod)
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*puts mod had on*

Ne, before this thread deteriorates into flames and accusations and arguments, either cool it or take it to PMs. That's a warning for everyone, including those who think they might want to join in for some reason or another. Discussion is good, I just don't like where this could be heading.

Just nippin' it in the bud, is all. Easier to stop it before it starts and all that.

*takes mod hat off*

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:23 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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You're right, Iyolin. Sorry for getting my tail in a twist.

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:01 am 
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but don't you think it's impressive that i was able to throw POGs into this dicussion?
this is my goal in life.
i think you knows this.

RED DRAGONS!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:35 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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Hepkitty, since you are the ruler of my face, I must think anything you do is awesome. For fear of ...the consequences. *cue scary music*

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:15 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Honestly, I nearly peed my pants reading "Hepkitty's Excellent Pog Adventure".

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:50 pm 
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My favorite Simpsons episode was when Millhouse traded Bart's soul for 4 Alf POGs.

"Remember Alf?.....He's back--in POG FORM!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: Kanazashi magazine article
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:08 am 
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Location: Torontonia
Fav. Motif: Ume, Tsuru and Tsubame
You can buy Kanzashi in the 100yen shop :D

I honestly think the "made in China" stuff is far more of a threat than Suzzy's Mom the Hobbiest who will make three from her .99 bargain bin fabric and hang it from her purse and give two to her friends. She wasn't going to spend 30$ on Kanzashi anyway.

The person at the convention is going to be looking for deals and is going to see the 30$ Kanzashi set that looks comparable to something you artisans are selling for 75$ and they're going to buy the stuff from China before they're out competing with you. Which is where having a quality product and good business reputation and customer base is important.

That said, a bit of competition is good. Knowledge keeps the market moving and innovating and keeps prices in check and from becoming inflated. Just making a Kanzashi isn't art in itself. Everyone's grandmother in Japan can do it. Just like Haute Couture vs. ready-to-wear, the art comes from something besides just the technique. That said, I know how long it takes to make Kanzashi, and based on materials I know what its approximate value in time/materials is worth. I think that its good for consumers to know these things too. Don't you want to know if you're getting ripped off when you buy something? Do you care if you really really really WANT AND LOVE IT?

Basic Google-fu will show that you can buy a 'bridal set' of Kanzashi from Japanese professionals who do this for a living, for 200-300$, why on earth would I pay 50$ for a single flower or a few bunches? Why would I when I could go to the 100yen shop and buy cute barrettes? There are reasons, if you're meeting those reasons, the average hobbiest isn't going to care and they're going to buy the product anyway.

Everyone and their grandmother make Kanzashi and kimono-recycled crafts in Japan and it doesn't affect the high-end retail stuff.

Also... man. POGS.


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