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James
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Post subject: [Knowledge] Counters for Kimono and Kimono-related items Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:32 am |
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| Maiko-san |
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:21 am Posts: 1093
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As those members who have some knowledge of Japanese know, Japanese uses counting words. These can be thought of a similar to words like "head" in the English "50 head of cattle," or "sheet" in "10 sheets of paper," but in Japanese, unlike in English, nearly all nouns require a counter, and there are lots of them. Kimono-related counting words can be quite complicated, because they sometimes don't work as you might expect. Here is a list. Fabric (反物 tanmono) counter: 反 pronunciation: tan examples: ittan, ni-tan, san-tan notes: a tan is a bolt of fabric. Since they're long and cylindrical, they can also be counted with hon. For some reason, single bolts that are double length (the length of 2 bolts) are counted using hiki (疋 or 匹), meaning "head," which is a counter for animals. Fans (扇子 sensu)counter: 本; 枚 pronunciation: hon; mai examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon; ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai notes: choose the appropriate counter depending whether the fan is open or closed: hon (long/thin) implies it is closed, "mai" (thin/flat) suggests it's open Footwear (履物 hakimono)counter: 足 pronunciation: soku examples: issoku, ni-soku, san-soku notes: see Tabi for more info. Fundoshi (褌 fundoshi)counter: 本 pronunciation: hon examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon notes: fundoshi can also be counted with "mai"; see Haori for more info. Colloquially, they can also be counted with 丁 chou, which is the counter for guns and tools.... Hakama (袴) counter: 腰 pronunciation: koshi examples: hito-koshi, ni-koshi, san-koshi notes: hakama are often counted using mai, but koshi, which means "waist," is the original term.
Han-eri (半衿)counter: 掛け pronunciation: kake examples: hito-kake, ni-kake, san-kake notes: han-eri can also be counted using mai, but only if they are not attached to the juban. Haori (羽織)counter: 枚 pronunciation: mai examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon; ikkumi, ni-kumi, san-kumi notes: "mai" is used for counting thin, flat objects like sheets of paper Haori-himo (羽織紐) counter: 本、組 pronunciation: hon, kumi examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai notes: single haori-himo are counted with "hon"; "kumi" is used for counting pairs of himo. Pairs can also be counted with 揃え (soroe), 対 (tsui) or 双(sou). Japanese umbrellas (和傘 wagasa)counter: 張り pronunciation: hari examples: hito-hari, ni-hari, san-bari notes: hari refers to things that spread, thus is the traditional counter for umbrellas. Nowadays hon (long/thin) is more common. Juban (襦袢 juban; 長襦袢 naga-juban)counter: 枚 pronunciation: mai examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai notes: see Haori Kamishimo (裃)counter: 具 pronunciation: gu examples: ichi-gu, ni-gu, san-gu notes: gu is a counter for "sets" of clothing. It's also used to count things like suits. Kimonos (着物 kimono; 長着 naga-gi)counter: 枚 pronunciation: mai examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai notes: see Haori and Montsuki sets Montsuki setscounter: 揃い pronunciation: soroi examples: hito-soroi, ni-soroi, san-zoroi notes: "monstuki sets" refers to complete formal outfits: kimono + haori + hakama. Counting with soroi implies a complete set of formal or ceremonial clothing. Monstuki kimono by themselves can be counted using 着 chaku Obi (帯) counter: 本 pronunciation: hon examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon notes: the counter hon is used for long, thin objects such as pencils and bottles. The pronunciation changes for each of the numbers as can be seen in the partial list above. Obi can also be counted with mai (on the grounds that they are thin and flat); 条 jou, or 筋 suji can also be used, since these indicate things that are long and narrow. Tabi (足袋)counter: 足 pronunciation: soku examples: issoku, ni-soku, san-soku notes: the kanji 足 means "foot." The counter soku is used to count pairs of tabi; single tabi are counted using mai. In older times, the counter 両 ryou, meaning "both," was used to count pairs of items; this counter is apparently still used for a special kind of tabi I've never heard of called shitouzu. Te-nugui (手拭い)counter: 本 pronunciation: hon examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon notes: can also be counted with "mai" (see Haori for more info); or with suji and jou (see Tabi for more info). Yukata (浴衣)counter: 枚 pronunciation: mai examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai notes: see Haori The information was translated from a chart on the Ginza Motoji website. Of course, if you have fewer than 10 of an item, you can always count without counter words by using the traditional numerals hitotsu, futatus, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu, kokonotsu and tou. "2 kimonos" thus becomes " kimono futatsu" and "7 umbrellas" is "wagasa nanatsu," but if you have 11 of something, you're out of luck (and anyway, it's nice to know the right words for things). [topic moved and title edited by bebemochi]
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seoulstar74
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:45 am |
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| Geiko-san |
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:55 am Posts: 1539 Location: Seoul
Fav. Motif: Fujin & Raijin
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thanks for that fuuga! very useful!! here are a few more i use when I'm searching the 'net:
Obi-jime(帯締め) counter: 本
Obi-age (帯揚げ) counter: 枚
点 is for sets. for example 3点 is a three-piece set like yukata/obi/geta. you can also search for multiple items using this one. (kind of like looking for "hukuro" obi on ebay instead of "fukuro" obi.) for example: 着物 帯 3点 would be kimono obi set of 3.
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Ems
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:38 pm |
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| Minarai-san |
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:39 am Posts: 425 Location: Indiana, USA
Fav. Maiko: Wakana
Fav. Geiko: Kikuno of Nara
Fav. Motif: Peony, peacocks, fish, matsu
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Oh jeez, and here I was thinking -mai and -tsu was okay for everything. Thanks for the info!  And... and why aren't umbrellas counted with -hon?! They're practically the perfect long, cylindrical object! Japanese makes my brain hurt... 
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Tahanala
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:07 pm |
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| Tayuu |
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:45 pm Posts: 4656 Location: France
Fav. Maiko: Umehisa, Mameharu, both Ayano
Fav. Geiko: Kotoha, Fukuyû, Ichiraku
Fav. Motif: Tsuta, Kiku leaves, Same
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Not when they're open! (And isn't that what they're made for? What would be the point of using one otherwise?)
_________________ "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
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rubyminky
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:38 pm |
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| Onesan |
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:39 am Posts: 2795 Location: UK
Fav. Motif: bamboo, yabane, ivy, tachibana
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I've never thought about this before, but it's fascinating. Thankyou! Lots to think about...
_________________ Revamped site coming soon...
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hellokitty8182
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:49 pm |
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| Minarai-san |
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:45 pm Posts: 376 Location: UK
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Another interesting lesson on grammar!
I was reading the wikipedia article and I never knew about counting words also applied in Cantonese. But then I learnt it when I was a child via conversations with my family so its not surprising that I don't understand the grammar.
I will play more attention now!
_________________ All is fair in love, war and kimono auctions!!!! You can find me in the following places Blogger, Etsy, Twitter and Deviantart
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Peccantis
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:57 pm |
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| Maiko-san |
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:41 am Posts: 895 Location: Finland, -09 area
Fav. Motif: Ume, chiku, matsu
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Ems wrote: Oh jeez, and here I was thinking -mai and -tsu was okay for everything. Thanks for the info!  (...) Well, the hitotsu futatsu mittsu etc. system does work for everything. Only you'll sound a bit... weird if you don't use counters, like, ever. It's like always saying "tabi by the amount of six" or something.
_________________ If it doesn't make sense, it's probably stage wear.
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James
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Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:17 pm |
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| Maiko-san |
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:21 am Posts: 1093
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Peccantis wrote: It's like always saying "tabi by the amount of six" or something. Thanks for the chuckle.
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