This is a list of the types of obi acceptable to wear with different kimono styles:

Correct Obi To Be Worn With Each Kimono:

Furisode Kimono:
Maru, Fukuro, Tenga

Tomesode Kimono:
Maru, Fukuro, Nagoya, Tenga

Iromuji Kimono:
Fukuro, Nagoya, Tenga

Houmongi Kimono:
Maru, Fukuro, Nagoya, Tenga

Komon Kimono:
Fukuro Nagoya/kyoubukuro, Nagoya, Tenga (with nicer komon, semi-formal type), nice Hanhaba, nice Heko, Saki ori

Yukata:
Hanhaba, Heko, Saki ori

Relevant Threads:
Original Thread: viewtopic.php?t=2896

Read the thread below for more discussion expounding on reasons and to clarify things.

Note: Tenga obi can be worn by itself or with two of them. Two adds more volume, so this is what you'll usually see with furisode.


[bebemochi edited to add nice Hanhaba and Heko to Komon and Heko to Yukata.]
[26.07.07 - iyolin edited to change "fukuro" under komon to "fukuro nagoya"; also added in iromuji kimono; 4.08.09 - edited to add 'saki ori' obi; 16.08.09 - edited to add tenga to furisode]

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Furisode Kimono:
Maru, Fukuro

Tomesode Kimono:
Maru, Fukuro, Nagoya, Tenga

Houmongi Kimono:
Maru, Fukuro, Nagoya, Tenga

Komon Kimono:
Fukuro, Nagoya, Tenga

Yukata:
Hanhaba [/quote]


what is the different between komon kimono and Yukata (other than yukata is to be wear during the summer)

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ask~ you never know what would the answer be if you don't.

Yukata is unlined and cotton, and komon are lined and traditionally silk. Also, yukata are more informal than komon (I think!).

You're right, Yukata, if my memory serves me well... basically means "bathrobe".  The only time they're worn really, is in the summer, during festivals, which are informal to the extream, think faded jeans and a t-shirt.  While Komon, are more like the western equivelent of kacki pants and a white shirt... being a step up from the jeans and t-shirt look.

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ahhhh Thank you~

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"Thick Silk Bolt for Nagoya Obi"

what is that?

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ask~ you never know what would the answer be if you don't.

Is this something you saw on Ebay? I can't really tell without a link to the item, but it's probably unsewn fabric and not a complete obi.

Rogue Angel would be right, as far as I undestand it. It means that it's a fabric bolt that's designed to be made into a Nagoya obi. You'd have to get someone to sew it and put in a shin (stiffener) for you.

ahh thank you so mcuh... I saw that on ichiroya ^^

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Important EDIT: Found out later (after the initial posts) that my obi is actually a Fukuro Nagoya obi, not a real fukuro. So fukuro obi is too formal for komon kimono.

A Fukuro Nagoya obi is an obi that's the length of a Nagoya obi but not sewn shut, so it's about 3.6m long, whereas a fukuro is closer to 4.2m long. It's also called Kyoubukuro/kyobukuro.

Sorry for the confusion! Thought I clarified already.  :oops:

What on earth is a tenga?

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Iyolin had described tenga as followed in another thread:

^ so you mean kinda like a fukuro with alot of bling bling?

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I think the fukuro obi (and the fukuro nagoya, and the wide end of a nagoya obi) are all about 27-34 cm wide. Ichiroya, now that I check, just lists everything 14-18 cm wide under "hanhaba," regardless of length, and clarifies the purpose/formality level in the individual listing.

The "Brand New Synthetic Obi" listings are all for new, synthetic, fancy-looking but fairly small-patterned, brocade, half-width obi of 15 cm width and 4 meters' length. The brocades are moderately elaborate, and seem to have metallic threads worked into them. So, as far as width and length go, it sounds like a tenga obi as described by Iyolin in the other (very helpful) thread. (It also looks like something I could actually make with the poly brocades down at my local fabric store...new project...)

All the "vintage" narrow obi on the same site run only about 2.5 to 3.7 meters. Most of their fabrics are much a finer tapestry type, with a larger repeating pattern, and only one has bright colors, obvious metallics, or a very celebratory motif--

http://www.ichiroya.com/item/list2.php?number=109238

So...are any of these tenga obi? I don't see much on a Google--mostly Spanish for "I have an obi" or references to Star Wars.

Final question--on eBay, there are listings for "han haba odori." Where do they fit into the picture? (Ok, probably dancing, but I'd like to know when, why, how, with what kimono, etc.)

Thanks,
Bai

A tenga obi is essentially a hanhaba obi with metallic threads and celebratory motifs--like cranes, bamboo, etc. The obi I'm wearing here is a tenga obi:

(The celebratory motifs are chinese geometric designs, kiku, and bamboo, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.)

Odori (Dance) hanhaba obi tend to have really flashy, bright colors (bright green, canary yellow, crimson red) and lots of metallics, or they may be entirely metallic.

Wrt to the obi Bai just posted, I'm not sure. It's not as loud as many odori hanhaba I've seen, but it's louder than most tenga obi I've seen.  :? I would guess it's an odori obi.

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An addition:

Iromuji Kimono:
Fukuro, Nagoya

(In general, fukuro is more appropriate for iromuji with mon, while Nagoya is better for the less formal "mon-free" iromuji - I think!)

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I think the link to the obi (http://www.ichiroya.com/item/list2.php?number=109238) is a dancing obi. A little more elaborate than others, but it has the same feel to me as an odori obi (it's also maru, I believe, which is common for odori obi; to have the same design on the other side, or a solid bright color).

Tenga obi are rather new. They're not that common, and I think the name "tenga" is what the people who make them decided to call them. They look basically like narrow fukuro obi. They're fancy. I have a hanhaba with some metallic threads, and it's not tenga. The motifs aren't formal/celebratory and it's just too casual. For a hint, tenga means "gorgeous" - so that's a hint that it's a fancy, formal, elegant obi. I believe they're usually silk but not that doesn't rule out synthetic ones (as they're so rare, I just don't know much about them at all). I have tried to find images of them, but as I said, they're hard to find.


Thanks for the addition of the Iromuji! No one at class wore one; I'm assuming they're not that common outside of tea ceremony circles. That's why I didn't get to study them or what to wear with them at all.

You're welcome. And of course - my understanding may be imperfect. If anyone can refine that entry with more information, that would be great. (E.g. I have never seen/heard of maru obi being worn with iromuji; but I could be wrong!)

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Ok, how about saki ori obi? Rag-woven cloth implies frugality, and I think I've read that they were created originally by the poor, then taken up as very wabi sabi artifacts by wealthier folks. But who wears them now, and when, and (harking back to the purpose of this thread) with what kimono, and how formally?

--Bai

I've seen saki ori worn with yukata and komon-level kimono. I'll check for pictures.

I had to search google to make sure saki-ori was what I thought it was. My sensei actually does saki-ori (apparently it's quite easy) and she usually makes things like table runners and placemats and coasters, BUT I have seen her wearing saki-ori obi casually, with komon kimono (she'd not teach a lesson dressed in yukata, I think; it's probably too casual for having guests over). I've never seen her go out in it, though, but she does wear it around the house.

All the saki-ori obi she's made are hanhaba width.

I thought they only came in hanhaba size (perhaps they do now?), but here's a vintage one for sale on ebay, and it's 'full' size and made of silk, which I imagine is more formal than the ones my sensei would make out of cotton.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Saki-Ori-Re ... dZViewItem

Looking at the length, though, it's only about 3.76m long, and although they call it fukuro, I think the length would make it Fukuro Nagoya obi (aka kyoubukuro), not a full fukuro obi (it seems a bit short, to me).

If that's the case, I'd say it's then a very casual Nagoya obi when it's full width, and could possibly be worn with tsukesage in that case. I know houmongi can have Nagoya too, but I think as they're more formal, it probably wouldn't be done.

I think these are the kanji for saki ori

ç¹â€

Iyolin--

Thank you so much for the research. Glad to hear how versatile sakiori obi are, and that your teacher wears and weaves them. I asked because I'm about to start weaving again myself--Santa brought me the loom I asked for, and obi are the plan.

--Bai

Quick question:  Do you ever wear an obiage and obijime with a hanhaba obi?  I haven't seen them in pictures with yukata, but what about when you wear a hanhaba with a komon kimono?

You don't have to wear obiage and obijime with a hanhaba obi worn with komon kimono, but you can if you like.

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I've not seen it done, but as bebemochi said, you can. But do make sure it's informal, which for obijime means lacking metallic threads, pearls, and is one of the thinner kinds (not the big round fat ones, or the big pillowy ones, since those are for furisode).  I've seen obijime with hanhaba more than I've seen obiage.

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Is it a major social faux pas to wear a hanhaba obi with a summer ro kimono that has no crests and a simple repeated pattern all over?

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"kimono that has no crests and a repeated pattern all over" sounds like a ro komon. Since hanhaba obi are "daily wear," and komon are, too, they seem ideal. Is the issue that the hanhaba obi is not a summer-weight (ro, sha, or unlined) fabric?

--Bai

....hmm I have a quick question...I hope this is a good place to ask this....looks like it is
An unlined "hitoe" is it
would a hanhaba obi be used with it
even an easy obi maybe???

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Beautifully Sweet

Either one would be fine with a hitoe, assuming it's a komon (all over pattern.) Some tsuke (easy) obi are quite formal, though, so you have to take that into account.

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We're so feral.

yeah it's an all over pattern

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120118371910&rd=1&rd=1

ok thanks!

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Beautifully Sweet

It is summer weight.  One long, solid piece of unlined fabric.  My concern was only that the kimono is not a yukata, and all sources I've seen point to "hanhaba are only for yukata".  Even the first post of this thread says so.

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Eta-naru--cute kimono! Hanhaba or an informal tsuke obi will be great for that.

AnnaMayBelle--oops! We all make mistakes. I'll correct the first post. Hanhaba obi are just fine with komon.

There are some hanhaba that are a very thin, synthetic type that can look sort of icky with komon. They are usually billed as "yukata obi." They're often reversible.


For example,

This is an outfit I put together. I thought the hanhaba obi would be okay, since it was a wool hitoe I was wearing. See how flimsy the obi looks? This type of hanhaba obi is really best with yukata.
Of course, our Naomi bucks all the tends and looks fabulous.

This is an outfit she wore to a Renn Fest in FL. So, sometimes it can work!

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I got my new hakata nagoya obi today.
It has such a small tail section like this example:




It is new so that there isn´t an open seam or something like that.

Can someone help???

Uhm... I have a question I could not find an answer to, and I couldn't think of a better place for it.

Some Obis I'm watching are unlabeled- just 'obi'. They're also folded into a rectangle with the end of the tail.  They're either fukuro or maru- but some have a line at the end of the tail.. like  ___|_| Type of thing. Is that specfic to maru? I have noticed it mostly on there, but I am not sure if it can be on fukuro...

I have a fukuro obi that has those gold lines on it, so it's definitely not specific to maru obi.  ;)

Me too. It's about 1/2 patterned with gold, other half patterned with green

That line often marks the location for the top of the "sticking out piece on the bottom" of an otaiko formation (not necessarily "otaiko musubi", just the formation, which also appears in musubi like fukurasuzume). IIRC, it's covered by the bottompart that is folded  to make the otaiko formation and usually isn't supposed to show after the obi is tied.

This is hard to explain which part it is.. the very bottom of the bow, just above your bum, sorta rectangular shaped.

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was wondering what obi knots u can have with a fukuro obi to a tomesode?

I really like to know whitch know you can have where anyway, but sence I'm wareing tomesode next I'll ask about that first. =)

Drum bow in all hounour, but there are sooo many nice ways to tie it I really don't want a drum.

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/ Jessica

Technically, I do believe the otaiko knot is the proper musubi to where with a kurotomesode at all times.  However, I have seen some modified otaiko that are just a little more fun, and there are some furisode musubi that I found in one of my books that look otaiko-ish, but with some flair.  I could try and scan some of those for you.

I love the otiko know when you put the extra bit a bit more puffy in the middle:
(can't find a good pic, but lokks a bit like the hexagon atternd one in the background)

ties liek this: http://www.sgm.co.jp/kituke/01aeaeo/05/02_2/
but I have heard thats only for visiting wear..

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/ Jessica

PleasureDroid, that style of musubi isn't really considered a variation of the otaiko.  It's called tsunodashi. From what I understand in your other thread, you aren't really planning on being strictly traditional, so if you want to wear tsunodashi instead, why not?
Just a thought, though--otaiko is very comfortable if you need to sit in a chair. You may want to consider the event: Will it take you awhile to drive there? Will you be sitting in a chapel pew? Does the reception feature a sit-down dinner? Even tsunodashi isn't very comfortable for situations like that.

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yeah, I was thinking about soemthing more flat, it was just that it was variations of the otaiko due to it beeing THE knot to have on your obi to a kurotomesode. but yes, as I do not have the correct items to wear it fully traditionally I have to improvise.. Was thinking more flat knot. No drive, no chapel, but dinner. thinking something like the geisha knot that just hangs strait.

Anyway, that was a bit offtopic.
Still, I think it would be useful to know abit about what knot to wear when.
Drum always works, but there are so many more beautifull and common ones out there. Offcourse not all, bit like 2-5 knots to each style of kimono and occation.  there is still a code just like when to wear which kimono...
Perhaps someone with extencive knowledge or a thick obi-book could write some down here (or start a new knowledge thread perhaps?)

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/ Jessica

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about when and where to wear which obi musubi, other than that one remembers that otako is the most formal.

You can wear furisode musubi with tomesode (not necessarily kurotomesode, though), but they should be smaller since they're not balancing out the sleeves and the "feeling" of the furisode (which is more "look at me" than, say, a houmongi).

Other than that, it's more of a formality level thing with obi type, as far as I understand it. Of course, there are "rules" for when in dance/odori, and most likely if you're the one serving/preparing tea in tea ceremony, but otherwise, for the average individual, I'm not sure there's any rules about it.

If you know otherwise, though, or have information of it, do please share or start a new "knowledge bank" thread.

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And now for something completely different...

I just bought a really lovely black ro nagoya obi. The fabric is very sheer with large areas where the ivory lining shows through, giving it a striped effect. Are black obi only to be worn for mourning? My books are somewhat fuzzy on this point, so I thought I would asks the IG experts.

Yohmama-san, I believe that was discussed (or can most certainly be discussed) in the Wearability of Mofuku (all black kimono/obi) thread, also located in the Kimono & Kitsuke Knowledge Bank.

I think it was decided that anything black-on-black was mofuku (with the exception of hanhaba obi), but as you can see from the other thread it can be worn with iromuji. However, that's usually for specific occasions, not out to the tea ceremony, say.

But, as we are not in Japan, nor attending many Japanese funerals, I'm sure you can mix it in with your wardrobe to create a look you enjoy (I've a black obi myself that I want to try out with a specific kimono, but have yet to do so; no real occasions to wear it yet). I doubt anyone will say anything.

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Hmm, I have a question (as usual): What do we know about the proper situations for wearing an obi with a small, all-over kanji pattern, like this one:

?

It's a nagoya obi, so I'm assuming an obi like this could technically be worn with a nice komon, but is that really the case? Would it be better with something more formal, like an iromuji? And is there any sort of specific situation (like tea ceremony) that would be most appropriate/totally inappropriate for an obi like that (good skies I get so confused about this stuff sometimes...)?

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That's the Hannya Sutra one up on eBay now, isn't it... I've just been eying that up but I think I have sufficient in the grey obi stakes

Well, here's what I could find about the Hannya Sutra:
http://www.andrew-may.com/zendynamics/heart.htm
http://www.budtempchi.org/hannyashingyo.html

Since it's a meditative sutra, I would guess it would be perfect for tea ceremony. I'd personally wear that with an appropriate komon in a heartbeat.

However, I have seen black versions of this that are clearly mofuku, though whether it's the same sutra or a different one I have absolutely no clue. I'd guess at a different one that's specific for funerals.

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猫ãÂ

Yep, it's the eBay one. I've seen a couple of other, similar ones floating around the internet, but this seemed like the perfect time to ask. It has a very tea-ceremony-ish feeling about it to me (makes me kind of sad, as I think it's too solemn to match my new komon and too dark to lighten up my iromuji, but it's a nice piece).

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Just a (not so) quick question!

I've just received a polyester furisode today, but it's more like a komon with ankle-length sleeves. Do I still wear a fukuro obi with it, or is it acceptable to wear an otaiko (or nagoya obi) with it? How formal is it? Where should I wear it to? I have a picture of one in one of my kimono books, but the book only gives points on small accessories like the footwear, the shawl and the hairpieces to match with a komon-furisode. It also classes the furisode as a 'party kimono', but I'm not quite sure how far that extends, since I can't read kanji very well.

Is it also alright to wear otaiko obi with a kofurisode? I've seen it done before, using nagoya obi even...

Thanks!

What about wearing a really poufy tsunodashi, like what you see in woodblock prints? I've seen dolls in komon furisode with tsunodashi before. Otaiko doesn't really balance long sleeves well, imo.

Many maiko furisode are komon pattern - the design doesn't really change the formality level on furisode much, as far as I know; it's one that the formality is based only on the sleeve length, and all furisode are formal these days (I don't know about a hundred years ago, though, which is why I say "these days").

Fukuro obi is definitely ok with a furisode kimono of any design, in my opinion.

Continuing on the same lines...

I got my first karinui the other day - it was a furisode from Ichiroya which had a stain on a lower part of one of the sleeves. I figured it would be fine to wear if I updated it to make a houmongi and have been imaging it like that since!

It arrived on the weekend... and the stain is so small that it took me ages to even find it knowing where it was supposed to be! So now it seems like a shame to cut down the sleeves even though I had my heart set on a houmongi (I'm not a floaty sleeves kind-of-a-girl!)

So the question (long winded way to start but hey) - I had a flashy nagoya-obi pinned down to wear with it (very flashy - gold thread, heavy embroidery) and have been practicing the otaiko over my dressing gown.  :oops: But if I have a furisode doesn't that mean someone else has to tie me some complicated knot with a fukuro/maru obi? Does this mean I have to rethink my budget??? Is there anyway to tie a respectable furisode knot using a nagoya-obi?

Best laid plans and all that...  :twitch:

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I think you could probably do this musubi with nagoya, although I can't say I've tried it.

http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~tomasan/obi7.html

Since the te end is folded in half to make the bunko style bow, why couldn't it be an end that's already sewn in half?

I guess the major question would be whether or not your nagoya has a long enough tare to do the bow properly. It seems like something you could finagle, though.

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Thanks! Will give it a try... back to the drawing board...

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Hey guys, what do you wear with tuskesage and omeshi kimonos?

Tsukesage would use the same obi group as houmongi, I believe.

Omeshi kimono are more complicated, because omeshi is a technique (and an adjective, in this case), not a type of kimono (as a noun). In other words, it's like asking what sort of obi to use with a shibori kimono--there are shibori komon, shibori furisode, etc. If your omeshi kimono is a tsukesage, wear a tsukesage-compatible obi. If it's a komon, use an obi of that formality level.

--Bai "calls her omeshi tsukesage 'omeshi' for short...but only when no one is listening" Mianxi

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Okay thanks for the tsukesage question Bai Mianxi, I don't really know what kind of omeshi
that I have bought and it haven't arrived yet but this picture I'v got.



and these are the measures:

Blue:60 inches / 152 cm
Pink:25 inches / 64 cm
Black:25.5 inches / 65 cm
Green:22.5 inches / 57 cm

Nimdun> That's an omeshi komon It's really pretty, by the way. I love those flowers!

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Well, according to what folks told me over here, you can get away with a nice one with a komon at least. I don't think I would try it with, say, a furisode or a tomesode though.

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I've been wondering about this for some time already: What's the difference between hiraki (opened) Nagoya obi and kyobukuro? I also have a couple of fukuro obi that are patterned like a Nagoya obi but are longer, about 4.2 m. Are these obi also kyobukuro?

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It seems to me the "opened" Nagoya obi are often stitched in half for the first 20cm, then left alone with their "undies" showing. I guess Fukuro-Nagoya obi aren't stitched at all in half, and have a nicely finished lining. However, I am absolutely not a specialist!

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Do you have pictures of what you mean with a fukuro obi patterned like Nagoya? Do you mean with just a placement of motif so that it'd show in the front and only on an otaiko portion of the bow, or something else?

As far as I can tell otherwise, an opened Nagoya obi is the same thing as a kyobukuro obi and that they're just different names for the same thing. My patterning on the fukuro Nagoya I have (which is a kyobukuro Nagoya/obi) is the same as I'd find on a fukuro obi, only it's shorter (with the long section of pattern, then unpatterned plain section, then patterned section at the end).  [I always forget the right terms for the obi parts... *embarassed*]

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That's what I mean! This type of fukuro obi is okay with iromuji or tsukesage but you don't wear them with most formal kimono.
But is it still too formal for komon kimono?
My karabana "snowflake" obi  :)
Summer obi #1
Summer obi #2

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Hmmm, seeing as the motif placement really kind of restricts them in what you could do musubi wise, and that they LOOK like Nagoya obi, I'd probably wear them with semi-formal komon, but not the "slumming around the house" type, if that makes sense. I'd treat it like a formal Nagoya obi, since that's basically what it looks like when worn, right?

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That's what I thought. Thanks Iyolin  :)

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Something to keep in mind, if this obi is fukuro obi length, and you are wearing it in the double otaiko style, that will make it more formal then a nagoya (that can only be worn in single otaiko).

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OK, from what I can glean from the English translation, a kyobukuro (fukuro-ish?) Nagoya obi is designed for ladies who need to adjust the width of the front band either wider or narrower due to body shape and has nothing to do with formality.

The store's site showed a new one on these with a wool kimono.

Can you link to the store, Chiiisana Hato?


And Mojuko, thanks for mentioning that! I forgot that if they were long enough, one would be tying Nijuudaiko instead, which is more formal. Any idea why that is, though, if it essentially looks the same? I had never thought to ask my sensei.

I wonder if those obi have a different name, or if they're "Nagoya" obi, or "fukuro" obi...

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from my collection of random obi info...
Zentsugara – 100% patterened, end to end.
Rokutsugara – 60% patterened, 1/6 pattern, 2/6 plain, 3/6 patterned
Otaikogara – Patterened for otaiko obi, patterens appearing in the front of the dou (waist) and on the drum sections.

Both nagoya and fukuro come in all three styles.

A fukuro otaikogara will often have two images in the drum section, because they are designed to be done in Nijuudaiko.

Kyobukuro – Know as the fukuro nagoya or open nagoya obi. A Nagoya length obi that is full width. Generally 360cm long and 30 cm wide.

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Kiku saho mamori tsukushite yaburu to mo hanaruru to te mo moto o wasuruna
Observe the standards and rules to the limit, and though you may break them or depart from them, never forget the principles
http://www.mojuko.com/

On summer obi weaves or what obi to wear with a ro kimono see

http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=12198

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Auberginefleur http://blog.livedoor.jp/auberginefleur/

- and edo komon are compatible with iromuji right? At least when it comes to obi?

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If it doesn't make sense, it's probably stage wear.

Yes, they are considered nearly on par with iromuji in terms of formality.

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"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

I've seen the item "Kurotomo" obi (bolt) listed on ichiroya, what is that kind of obi?