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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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moonblossom wrote:
The Book of Kimono basically only acknowledges items that are acceptable in Sodo school. It mentions nothing about a lot of strange hybrids and variations that exist outside of their own strict rules. Just something to keep in mind.

True.

Kokoro wrote:
Maybe that´s the answer: black crested haori are suiteable for mofuku but are not mofuku-haori. (does that make sense?)

I agree.

Kokoro wrote:
Haori Jackets…No matter how expensive…only for informal wear and inappropriate for tea gatherings or formal occasions.

That I don't agree with. Haori are most definately appropriate for formal wear.
The B of K ( :roll: ) says micihiyuki are suitable for tomesode if they are patternless. And douchuugi are only suitable for more casual kimono. Does that mean black, patternless michiyuki are mofuku suitable but otherwise usuable? Even though they don't bear crests?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:53 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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Talking about haori we have to differ between haori for woman and man. I think mens haori are more formal, they are part of the wedding attire etc. As a women you should normally take of your haori before entering the event/house/whatever and I think this is because of a lower formal level. I don´t know how this is handeled in Japan these days.

As far as I know dochugi are travel wear, so for more casual kimono as you said.

Michiyuki are rain gear, you need them to protect yourself and your kimono so they should suit the whole range from informal to formal wear. As I said before, black is a normal colour to coordinate and you find many black michiyuki out there to go with your coloured kimono (it´s the same here, you wear black clothes not only to a funeral).
I think you can wear a black michiyuki if you are on your way to the funeral, so yes, it is suitable for your mofuku outfit (because the circumstances demand it) but you would take it of for the ceremony itself, because it is inappropriate there. You could always take an umbrella if you have to go out for a short while.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Kokoro wrote:
Talking about haori we have to differ between haori for woman and man. I think mens haori are more formal, they are part of the wedding attire etc. As a women you should normally take of your haori before entering the event/house/whatever and I think this is because of a lower formal level. I don´t know how this is handeled in Japan these days.

Kuromontsuki haori need not be taken off when entering a house.

And here are some mofuku oddities I've come across as of late:

Image
Mofuku with kiku embroidered designs, obviously not a dance kimono.

Image
Mofuku with red beni lining. I do believe this was discussed elsewhere in the thread.

Sorry for the iPod screenshots.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:51 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Oh ya, I found this one too! I know the status of mofuku with one or three crests is dubious but I have proof now!

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:53 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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But why is this kimono a proof? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:02 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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That they exist... :oops: It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but until now, there was no picture off which to base the speculation of mofuku with less than five crests.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:07 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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I would call it a 3 mon black kimono (would it be kuro-muji???) and not mofuku :P

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Dalby's Kimono does list them (p. 202-203.)

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Found it (p. 180/181) :wink:
So 5 mon solid black kimono are high formal ceremonial mofuku wear. They cannot be regarded at something else.
3 or 5 mon solid colour kimono can be used as mourning wear. Solid colour means they are iromuji. The sitution, obi and accessories make them to mofuku wear.

Right?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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I think she was referring to regular iro-muji being used as funeral wear. I don't think she meant mofuku with less than 5 crests.
Tahanala is that the particular paragraph which you were referring to?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:51 pm 
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Tayuu
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I doubt we're referring to the same paragraph, considering it's a graph I'm mentioning. :P
However I have indeed overlooked the distinction between the "solid colour" seen everywhere on the chart and the "solid black, 5 crest" seen only at the very left.

It seems to indicate casually-related people can wear an irotomesode to a funeral, too?!

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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hikari_evyon wrote:
Are you guys ready for the next mofuku mystery? I found this on eBay:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5673628332_fa9df499c5.jpg

Upon closer inspection:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5066/5673060345_c5075acdcf.jpg

My first thought was that it was a dance piece and the pattern kept it from being real mofuku, but it's lined and silk. Is this still mofuku, or have we found the first ever 5-crested kuro-muji?


I got a kuro-muji here Evyon =D

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:40 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Your kimono is crestless though. That one has five formal kamon like mofuku does.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:52 am 
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Geiko-san
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So, what do you think about this one? I was heartbroken when it sold so fast (love calla lilies), but then I read Ichiroya's description... which says it's for mourning. I wonder why? It's gray and subdued, but does that alone make it mourning wear? I think some parts of the western world calla lily is a flower for mourning, but in Japan?

Image

Obi is here

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:56 am 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Was shusu silk used for mofuku? A lot of the pente obi I see are on black shusu obi; are these recycled mofuku? Or were they obi produced specifically to be painted?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Geiko-san
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I just found this.

(When the obi sells and the link stops working:
Purple sutra obi with description:
Nagoya Obi with a design of the Kanji calligraphy patterns. The background colour is dark and glossy purple. The wrttings are the text of a sutra and embroidered by gold metallic threads. It is an Obi for Buddist memorial service. Not funeral. )

Right now I am feeling too lazy to check what sutra that is. But maybe the mystery of those colored sutra obi was at least partly solved?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Good find muhvi! Thanks for telling us. Even though they're for memorials, there is just something about these obi I just like. :lovelove Interesting that the calligraphy is metallic.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:17 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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I asked Naoko's teacher Katsuko-sensei at dinner the other day about my gray, sutra nagoya obi and she said you can wear it for things like memorials, but you can wear it normally as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Just wanted to add this thread by Saiya-chan as a great way to alter mofuku zori for wear. viewtopic.php?f=60&t=19628&p=247196#p247196

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:46 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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hikari_evyon thanks for asking, that´s quite interesting :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Shikomi-san
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Hi everybody!
I am new and I've just fallen in love with kimono a short time ago.
I am waiting for my first kimono and obi at the moment, but it seems that I ordered a mourning obi (which looks quite similar to the third obi muhvi posted here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20529 ;maybe it's a twin :] )
My question is now: Do you think it is acceptable to wear this obi with a non-black kimono/obiage/obijime?


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 Post subject: Black obijime?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:33 pm 
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Hey, it's me again! Sorry for making so many posts lately :oops:

Is it true that black obijime are usually only limited to mofuku? And what's the word "usually" mean? I mean, if you were in Japan wearing a black obijime with, say, a komon or houmongi, would people not think anything of it, or would they automatically associate it with a funeral?

The whole "usually only limited to mourning" thing is what it says on Immortal Geisha wiki but I've seen it worn with furisode so I'm confused :sigh

EDIT: My obi is bright red, so would it be the same thing as black obi + black obijime = not acceptable, but black obi + colorful obijime = OK, or would it be completely different? Did that make sense xD?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:12 pm 
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Zora wrote:
Hi everybody!
I am new and I've just fallen in love with kimono a short time ago.
I am waiting for my first kimono and obi at the moment, but it seems that I ordered a mourning obi (which looks quite similar to the third obi muhvi posted here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20529 ;maybe it's a twin :] )
My question is now: Do you think it is acceptable to wear this obi with a non-black kimono/obiage/obijime?


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is an obi exclusive for mourning wear. Black obi are perfectly acceptable given they don't have crests, and that you wear them with a non-black or colorful kimono and accessories. So yes, in my humble opinion, that would be perfectly safe :]


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 Post subject: Re: Black obijime?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Good thing you started this topic because I also have a quite broad black obijime laying around!
And I'm scared to use it basically :$

Black (when solid black and no other colors) is mostly linked to Mofuku indeed..


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 Post subject: Re: Black obijime?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Shikomi-san
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this have been already discussed here

:] The search page is my first option, nearly all the questions I have on kimono have already been answered before!

[Topic merged by bebemochi]

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Jaydencats wrote:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is an obi exclusive for mourning wear. Black obi are perfectly acceptable given they don't have crests, and that you wear them with a non-black or colorful kimono and accessories. So yes, in my humble opinion, that would be perfectly safe :]


You seem confused. Obj, unless they are extremely high end geisha wear, rarely have mon. Maybe you are thinking of the signature you sometimes find on more formal pieces.

Any all black women's obi that is more formal than a yukata obi is mofuku. All black kimono with no mon are also okay - they are meant for casual wear.

Zora's obi may be okay because of the painted flower, if I'm interpreting her post correctly. It's hard to say without seeing a picture.

ETA: omg my phone made this post into typoville. Soz ladies, too hard to fix on my phone, you'll just have to laugh and shake your heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:19 am 
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Kamuro
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Thanks for correcting me! :] I was confused as to if she was referring to that being mofuku, or if she could dress it up with a normal kimono without it being mofuku. Since I've seen some colorful kimono with a black obi and colored obijime. But yeah, that is mostly limited to yukata.


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 Post subject: Re: Black obijime?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:27 am 
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Tsubame wrote:
this have been already discussed here

:] The search page is my first option, nearly all the questions I have on kimono have already been answered before!

[Topic merged by bebemochi]

The funny thing is, I posted that before I found this thread :ohno:

That answers part of my question, though... I'm still wondering if black obijime are used commonly in everyday wear in Japan.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:19 am 
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Maiko-san
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I found a couple of all black obijime in my stash. They came from a lot so there's no description to refer to. I would guess they are mofuku but the weave does seem a bit fancier than I would expect.

Image
Image

I also have (for reference) a black ro obijime with a stripe of white
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Kamuro
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the Lady Ashuko wrote:
I found a couple of all black obijime in my stash. They came from a lot so there's no description to refer to. I would guess they are mofuku but the weave does seem a bit fancier than I would expect.

[imgs removed my iyolin]


I also have (for reference) a black ro obijime with a stripe of white


Interesting! I'd guess the last one isn't mofuku. But for the first two, I would guess that the weave wouldn't matter that much if wearing as mofuku, since it's only visible close-up.

While we're on the subject of obijime, I'm wondering a good place to buy them. Rakuten, Ichiroya, Ebay...?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:07 pm 
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I don't know how the Mofuku-process works, but perhaps you wear Obijime 'til the end of mourning so you would need more items formality-wise and for different seasons..?

But I'm a bit irritated.. in the IG-Wiki its said the only Mofuku-Obijime are flat..
...I have.. 4 marukuge-obijime, one flat and two round Kumihimo-Obijime in black...

Also the Wiki states Mofuku-Obi are mostly Nagoya.. I find most often black Fukuro-Obi, also own one, and wouldn't Nagoya somehow be a bit informal in comparison to 5 mon on the Kimono...?
I'm.. confused... :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:17 pm 
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peachchanvidel wrote:
I don't know how the Mofuku-process works, but perhaps you wear Obijime 'til the end of mourning so you would need more items formality-wise and for different seasons..?

But I'm a bit irritated.. in the IG-Wiki its said the only Mofuku-Obijime are flat..
...I have.. 4 marukuge-obijime, one flat and two round Kumihimo-Obijime in black...

Also the Wiki states Mofuku-Obi are mostly Nagoya.. I find most often black Fukuro-Obi, also own one, and wouldn't Nagoya somehow be a bit informal in comparison to 5 mon on the Kimono...?
I'm.. confused... :? :? :?

Well round obijime are more formal but mourning wear is supposed to be very conservative, naturally. So I think round obijime would be acceptable if nothing else to wear, albeit not traditional mofuku obijime which are flat.

Yes, mofuku obi are most always nagoya. Sometimes hanhaba but NOT yukata hanhaba. As for the fukuro, is it completely black? If it has any designs on it of any other color than black (with the exception of crests), it is not mofuku.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Jaydencats wrote:
peachchanvidel wrote:
I don't know how the Mofuku-process works, but perhaps you wear Obijime 'til the end of mourning so you would need more items formality-wise and for different seasons..?

But I'm a bit irritated.. in the IG-Wiki its said the only Mofuku-Obijime are flat..
...I have.. 4 marukuge-obijime, one flat and two round Kumihimo-Obijime in black...

Also the Wiki states Mofuku-Obi are mostly Nagoya.. I find most often black Fukuro-Obi, also own one, and wouldn't Nagoya somehow be a bit informal in comparison to 5 mon on the Kimono...?
I'm.. confused... :? :? :?

Well round obijime are more formal but mourning wear is supposed to be very conservative, naturally. So I think round obijime would be acceptable if nothing else to wear, albeit not traditional mofuku obijime which are flat.

Yes, mofuku obi are most always nagoya. Sometimes hanhaba but NOT yukata hanhaba. As for the fukuro, is it completely black? If it has any designs on it of any other color than black (with the exception of crests), it is not mofuku.


Then I really would like to know what for the round Obijime are. It's like you get them all the time when you buy a used "random"-pack at shinei or jap.ant....

Yes. It. is. completely. black. - Please, don't talk to me like I'm some total newbie, just because I had questions =_= it's pretty rude to imply someone is to stupid to understand "ALL BLACK"....
Image Picture with flash so the pattern is visible.
Image
The marukuge-Obijime

To be honest: I think the Mofuku-Nagoya-Obi are more modern, because they are easier to put on for the people not wearing Kimono too often anymore..
These more-formal-items have to be from somewhere, sometime. And I think a funeral is pretty formal...


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:14 pm 
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Steady on, I don't think Jaydencats was being rude or implying you're stupid! Remember it's hard to gauge tone on the internet...

You said 'I find black fukuro obi, also own one' - perhaps she was thinking of these type of obi, which are very subdued and heavily black based but have some pattern:
Image

as opposed to this, which is definitely mourning wear and labelled as such at Ichiroya - this looks like the same type of obi as yours:
Image

Padded obijime are usually for furisode wear, if I remember rightly (can someone correct me?), so perhaps that's why they're more of a grey area as furisode are normally celebratory. I think you could get away with it if the rest of your outfit was bright and cheerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:50 pm 
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:? When... did I ever imply that you were stupid or a newbie? I was just trying to answer your question... :(

Yes, rubyminky, the first picture you posted is the type I was thinking of. :) If I recall correctly, you are right - padded obijime are used for furisode mostly. Just wanted to make sure peachchanvidel was not referring to a fancier black fukuro obi with a colored pattern, since those are the majority of the fukuro obi that I see online.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Minarai-san
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rubyminky wrote:
Steady on, I don't think Jaydencats was being rude or implying you're stupid! Remember it's hard to gauge tone on the internet...

You said 'I find black fukuro obi, also own one' - perhaps she was thinking of these type of obi, which are very subdued and heavily black based but have some pattern:
http://www.ichiroya.com/item/item_images/007/234369/RIMG0336_320.JPG

as opposed to this, which is definitely mourning wear and labelled as such at Ichiroya - this looks like the same type of obi as yours:
http://www.ichiroya.com/item/item_images/007/234277/RIMG0460_320.JPG

Padded obijime are usually for furisode wear, if I remember rightly (can someone correct me?), so perhaps that's why they're more of a grey area as furisode are normally celebratory. I think you could get away with it if the rest of your outfit was bright and cheerful.


Perhaps, but I still think "all black" is a pretty clear term... :unsure:
And in thought of the context I wrote I would never think "black obi" = "black based obi" :/
Also my question about this was: Aren't Nagoya-Obi A BIT unformal for something like funeral-wear (I mean.. this is something very formal, very religious and important..)?
And this isn't answered with such a question. Also I know it is one, or I wouldn't ask. Also I scanned the Wiki-article while writing, and the pictures are pretty clear, too.
Also I did some research, and it really seems like the Nagoya-Obi are a bit more modern Mofuku-wear, because it's easier, less heavy and better usable through more seasons, because of less layers. Still nothing I would take to seriously, 'cause of "Internet-source", but it would explain some things.

Also the Obijime are the same black as the Obi :( and if it's regular Furisode-wear I wouldn't understand why so much people give them away, as black matches a lot of colours...
I had in mind that padded Obijime are just highest formality.. Furisode, Tomesode, perhaps Houmongi and Iromuji with enough crests.
So my thought was, when you are in your last mourning state and you have to attend a formal event, a black padded Obijime could be needed. Or they are just very old "like the Fukuro Obi"...
I mean.. that's why I asked... stuff which should be Mofuku, but which is "too formal"... confuses me really, because I can't classify it..


Jaydencats wrote:
Yes, mofuku obi are most always nagoya. Sometimes hanhaba but NOT yukata hanhaba.

Out of the Wiki:
"Mofuku obi may be patterned, but the pattern and background are black, obi are usually nagoya obi, but mofuku fukuro are known to exist. Black hanhaba obi are not mofuku."

My reaction already was then like :mad: :frazzled :mad: :frazzled and then my temper got through.
First stating something which doesn't match the Wiki, and then the question if my Fukuro is really all black. Perhaps you understand, why I felt a bit mocked...
no hard feelings, just how it came to my reaction. :ermum

I didn't want to start a fight or anything, I'm sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:35 pm 
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No need to be sorry! There's no fight going on. I must have not caught it when you indicated "all black." In my thought context, black obi can mean an all black obi but also an obi that is not all black but has black as its main color. It's actually the reason why I bought a yukata obi for my komon - since I wanted a completely red obi with absolutely no colors other than red - even though it's technically not acceptable.

In answer to your question about mofuku fukuro vs nagoya, I don't really understand why either one wouldn't be acceptable. Of course, nagoya would always be less formal than fukuro but nothing about a nagoya obi strikes me as "informal." Since it can be used with so many different kimono. Maybe someone else has the answer :?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:56 pm 
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I guess I'll have to be more explicit next time :)


It's not that I think Nagoya are informal, but they are often more on the informal side in comparison to Fukuro, which are pretty definite.
Also: When Fukuro and Nagoya are the only Mofuku-Obi variants I would just tend to use Fukuro. I understand Nagoya is more convenient, but in which other situation would you use a Nagoya-Obi together with a five-crested Kimono (unless it was an altered one, because of perhaps damage, but still.. in case of formal attire weren't the Japanese people very strict about damage..?)? Also the men's outfit is the most formal one, so a Nagoya in comparison is so.. weird and a bit inappropriate..? It doesn't feel like the same level; I know Nagoya-Obi can have a pretty high one, but it feels so different from the other kitsuke-related rules... a bit out of place, so just for.. more convenience, something modern.. and as you don't need fancy bows, why fighting with more fabric?

I guess I understand why it's used, but this out of place feeling remains a bit..


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:35 am 
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I can be wrong in my conclusion. We all know that a nagoya obi is easier to tie. When I have just lost a loved one and my mind is occupied with many things, but not to fight with more fabric then I have to, would it not the more sensible choice ?
And as there is absolutely no other suitable musubi for this occasion and only a keen eye can see the difference between a fukuro obi and a nagoya obi in otaiko musubi, why bother ?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:33 am 
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My thought would be that the closer you are to the person, the more formal you dress, so if you're not an immediate relative, you'd be wearing some version of funeral wear, and Nagoya obi would likely be appropriate. I also think it's worn for the anniversary of the death ceremonies with iromuji.

If this assumption is true, then there'd be more black Nagoya obi available on the market as more people attending a funeral are not immediate relatives, and also because I imagine fewer people are wearing kimono to funerals unless the spouse or child/parent (one of those influences of western wear things).

I'd say the padded black obijime are mofuku - however, I'd also be willing to dress up an outfit with it anyway, since unlike mofuku kimono, I feel it has more leeway for use in other outfits as it doesn't necessarily scream 'funeral'. I'd assume obijime for furisode would have tassels or beads or pearls or something else with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:00 pm 
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This is a little off topic, but I was wondering if there was any thread regarding how to make obijime? I don't want to make a post if there already is one, though I couldn't find anything in search :P


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:15 am 
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Search for 'kumihimo' and there've been a couple topics on making your own.

You can also make the 'marukuge' type (the padded fabric tubes) using fabric and some yarn as stuffing.

I've also made obijime just with lengths of trim from the fabric store; it just needs to be stable and sturdy enough to keep its shape when pulled tight and tied.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:09 am 
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Thank you very much!

A more on-topic question, if I may. The nagajuban I just bought is off-white. I do not intend to wear mofuku, but I'm curious as to if mofuku nagajuban has to be plain white, or could it be off-white/beige too?

Oh, and the nagajuban I have did not come with a sash to tie it, as I expected. What is the sash that is used? Is it just a plain koshihimo? And do I only need one? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:37 am 
Shikomi-san
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Jaydencats wrote:
Thank you very much!

A more on-topic question, if I may. The nagajuban I just bought is off-white. I do not intend to wear mofuku, but I'm curious as to if mofuku nagajuban has to be plain white, or could it be off-white/beige too?

Oh, and the nagajuban I have did not come with a sash to tie it, as I expected. What is the sash that is used? Is it just a plain koshihimo? And do I only need one? :?

can't answer your mofuku question, but yes, you need two koshihimo.

one should be threaded through the emon nuki (i think it's called chikara nuno more commonly here), and the other should be tied above your hips.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:45 pm 
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How many koshi-himo do I need in all?

So that's two koshihimo for the nagajuban, one to tie around the waist of my komon, one to secure the V-line...?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Jaydencats The search function is your friend. :)

kitsuke items :
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=2787&p=259852&hilit=kitsuke+items#p259852

getting dressed:
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=3060

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Thanks :p

The search hates me. It is not my friend.

Still wondering if a nagajuban needs to be completely white or if it can be off-white for mofuku?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:07 pm 
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Hijacking the thread again. Sorry :lol:

I'm wondering if a padded obijime like this would be too formal for a komon?

http://www.etsy.com/listing/117415967/j ... v1_other_1

I'm assuming the stuffed ones are just for furisode but it's soooo pretty...


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:28 pm 
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Yes, it would be too formal as it is brocade. And it is only 117 cm long. My obijime are 150 cm. This information confirmed that it is for children. One can see brocade marukuge ( I hope this is the correct term ) mostly for shichi-go-san.
I have seen marukuge from different fabric ( cotton ) for fudangi ( casual wear )
As much as I understand your hesitation to start your own thread, questions like this are better asked in the general kitsuke part, where it is usually done. It is a bit confusing to find it in the "mofuku wearability" thread. Others who have probably the same question will not look for it here. :]
As this is written text I would like to say that I only want to nudge you into the right direction. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Jaydencats, please either use the search function and find the right thread, or make a new thread. There's no reason to talk about obijime creation or formality in this thread unless you're talking specifically about mofuku items. I may move your posts later when I'm not on my stupid phone that makes it so hard to do everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Thank you both :smil3:

Next time I'll be sure to post it in the general kitsuke section. I did do a search but I couldn't find anything about it and I didn't want to make a thread about such a trivial, noobish question :( sorry


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:25 am 
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peachchanvidel wrote:
I don't know how the Mofuku-process works, but perhaps you wear Obijime 'til the end of mourning so you would need more items formality-wise and for different seasons..?

But I'm a bit irritated.. in the IG-Wiki its said the only Mofuku-Obijime are flat..
...I have.. 4 marukuge-obijime, one flat and two round Kumihimo-Obijime in black...

Also the Wiki states Mofuku-Obi are mostly Nagoya.. I find most often black Fukuro-Obi, also own one, and wouldn't Nagoya somehow be a bit informal in comparison to 5 mon on the Kimono...?
I'm.. confused... :? :? :?


I'm the one who wrote the mofuku article.
Your kumihimo obijime are really all black? I've honestly never seen one like that; do you have pictures? I'll have to update the article, though honestly I don't remember writing that particular blurb. I'll re-read it.
Indeed, most mofuku are obi are Nagoya due to the bad luck nijuudaiko superstition, the mention of which is buried somewhere in this thread, hence the formality discrepancy. It seems you've just had a strange run of luck with running into mofuku fukuro. And yes, you are correct in that in other contexts, Nagoya obi are inappropriate to wear with any 5-crested kimono.

I've only skimmed your questions about the mourning process, but I think that saying people would probably abandon mourning remnants at un-related formal events should help clear things up.

As for the discussion of maruguke obi-jime, I'm still skeptical about their status as mofuku items. I'll see what some friends in Japan have to say about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:50 pm 
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no crests,
Image

Image

what is the formality and wearability of this?

rakuten lists all black kimono like this as iromuji

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:01 am 
Shikomi-san
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kiiro wrote:
no crests,

[imgs removed]

what is the formality and wearability of this?

rakuten lists all black kimono like this as iromuji

i asked my sensei about this kind of situation once. she wasn't super clear (and i kind of forget) but she did say it could be iromuji, but because it was all black, it would probably make Japanese people feel uncomfortable, and thus doesn't have a lot of wearability in Japan. mofuku must have crests, though, typically 5, but occasionally 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Maiko-san
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That was exactly my thought. I wondered if i were to wear such a thing, some japanese people might actually think i was wearing a mofuku kimono. all japanese may not necessarily be aware that mofuku must have crests, and may not even look for crests but simply the colour black. anywho, i was curious about it and its not something i see alot so i bought it :oops: :oops: (it was an impulse buy...i got all excited seeing a non crested black kimono) it belonged to a VERY old woman, so i suppose a woman of her age using such a dark kimono must be appropriate. But one thing i did notce, though the photo isnt very detailed, the silk seems to be textured somewhat if you look really good. also, the all black iromuji that i see on rakuten (there are only a couple...) also seem to have some sort of texture (not rinzu or like what you see on mofuku obi) in the silk which i do not see on mofuku kimono (the ones ihave seen, please correct if i am ignorant). what are your thougts on that?

I noticed that the hakkake on this is also of a dark colour, i think it might be black. I was thinking mofuku hakkake are always black so a nice way to throw off the "mofuku" vibe would be to replace the hakkake colour with a bright hard to miss one :creepo: also, i did wonder if there may be black kimono that are not meant for funeral but for mourning? like in the west when w womans husband died she was required by law to wear black for some time after (i think up to a year!) before moving on to purple etc as a part of the mourning process. does anything like this exist in japanese culture?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:10 am 
Shikomi-san
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i actually don't know that much about mofuku. it's not something that i've studied with any kind of depth yet, so i don't have solid answers for you, unfortunately.

i can't really say whether the texture makes any difference or not. there are plenty of iromuji with textured silk, though, which i believe by definition some could be rinzu, but i'm also not awesome at identifying fabric types at this point. i'm not sure at all about texture on mofuku. (or hakkake for that matter.)

kiiro wrote:
also, i did wonder if there may be black kimono that are not meant for funeral but for mourning? like in the west when w womans husband died she was required by law to wear black for some time after (i think up to a year!) before moving on to purple etc as a part of the mourning process. does anything like this exist in japanese culture?


mofuku encompasses all mourning wear. for the funeral and during the traditional mourning period (the length of which is determined by the relation to the deceased.) i hardly know anything about mofuku for men, but for women, mofuku would start as solid black, and as the mourning period progressed, pieces would gradually return to color, albeit muted and solemn tones. i don't know the exact order, but my textbook leads me to believe that one of the first things to change is the kimono itself, since one of the demonstrations of mofuku is a woman in a blue iromuji with solid black obi/jime/age and zori.

regardless, this process doesn't really seem to be practiced anymore. i've never seen anyone in mofuku, much less in-the-middle-of-mourning, half-mofuku-half-standard-kimono. when i see people who have clearly been to a funeral on the train or in town or something, they're pretty easy to pick out. middle-aged or older women have always been in Western clothing--modest, black dress/dress suit and pearls seems to be the standard. (men being in suits are slightly more difficult to spot, but i believe black ties are reserved for funerals in Japan?)


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:44 am 
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i read something about the ties somewhere. but i'll use this link since its what i could find right now.
modern mofuku

well, modern day aside, i really do wonder about it, if after the funeral regular black kimono were worn. the dark blue sounds viable though. I could imagine that in modern day japan few people would even bother wearing kimono to a funeral unless their family holds value in those kinds of things. personally if i was going to cry over my family, i wouldnt want overheating/ worrying about walking right or displaying correct etiquette getting in my way (or going to a professional dresser on the morning), so its fading use is expected.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:01 am 
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kiiro wrote:
well, modern day aside, i really do wonder about it, if after the funeral regular black kimono were worn. the dark blue sounds viable though.

sorry if it's unclear, but that's exactly what i was trying to say. black kimono were worn for a period after the funeral.

especially given that the funeral process itself takes a matter of days; it's not a one-day-only thing. there are a number of memorial dates observed at specific intervals after the death as well, lasting until many years (and even decades, i believe?) after the death. during those memorial services, it's also appropriate to wear mofuku items, though these are more often where the grey obi with sutras written on them and other memorial themes come into play.

i believe that immediately after the funeral the amount of black and period for which it is worn will depend on the relation to the deceased, but certainly immediate family members (especially women) would traditionally continue to wear black kimono for a certain time, before gradually introducing color back into their kimono. i don't know the specifics about how long each stage lasts, but basically the last item to return to normal color is the obijime, i believe.

so long as the mourning period continued and some items of mofuku were continued to be worn, i'd imagine (but don't know for sure) that colors would remain somber and plain (e.g. no designs, although textured silk of iromuji is fine). the photo i talked about before in my text book, is not a particularly dark shade of blue, though, iirc.

edit: despite black kimono being worn after the funeral, i'm unclear as to whether they were crested or not. certainly kimono worn to the funeral must be crested. you'd think that part of the mourning process would also involve honoring the deceased by displaying the kamon, but i'm not fully sure about those specifics. according to my sensei, though, she seemed to be very surprised that such a thing as black iromuji exists. to her it seemed like all solid black kimono should be formally crested with 5 mon as part of mofuku.

sidenote here because i just learned it: all-black 5-crested men's kimono is not necessarily mofuku. all-black 5-crested kimono for men are just the most formal kimono. it is what would be worn to a funeral/as mofuku, but it is not limited to being mofuku.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:49 am 
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When did mofuku start to be black? I recall reading somewhere that in the Edo era, widows who had no intention of remarrying would wear all WHITE, not all-black. (Unfortunately, I can't recall where I read it and although I searched at the time, I couldn't find any pictorial examples of this. ^^; )

I recall that in Tale of Genji, the more important/closer the person, the darker the weave ("It occurred to him [Genji] that if he had died [instead of his wife], she would be wearing a darker weave for him.") So at least in Heian, darker weaves = mounring... But then where did the white-wearing-Edo-period-widow thing come from? and does ANYONE have any information on it (especially pictures? ) I don't guess I really need to know, but it picqued my curiosity.

[I hope this isn't too off-topic, but it does have to do with mourning-wear.]

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:02 am 
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I did read once that the all white kimono of a bride meant that she died to her old family and also a patterned ( wedding ) kimono would have displayed a certain taste = her own mind, which was not to be tolerated. So white is a mourning colour as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Quote:
When did mofuku start to be black? I recall reading somewhere that in the Edo era, widows who had no intention of remarrying would wear all WHITE, not all-black. (Unfortunately, I can't recall where I read it and although I searched at the time, I couldn't find any pictorial examples of this. ^^; )


someone stated this information earlier in the thread. i think on the first or second page. apparently black only came "into style" after ww2. white was traditionally the colour of mourning, just the way it is in many other eastern countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:00 pm 
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one crested mofuku?

I was under the impression that all black kimono with one crest would technically be a formal iromuji. or does this fall into the category of "dark coloured iromuji that are appropriate for funerals but not strictly funeral wear" what do you guys think??

Image

here

honestly...something like this is so giri-giri that i will only wear it to the funeral of an aquaintance or coworker. it IS technically a kuromontsuki right? (black and crested)

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:36 am 
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if it's solid black and crested, i would be hesitant to say it wasn't mofuku.


getting back to the question you asked earlier, though, i asked my sensei about it again. (different sensei this time, though.) she said that there are such things as black iromuji that can be worn casually (she literally said "as a komon," which i didn't quite understand since iromuji != komon, but perhaps wearing it in a semi-formal situation would be too close to looking like mofuku). these have been a recent development because of fashion, but still not super popular. i can't remember exactly, but i do believe she said that such iromuji would be uncrested.

she also said that when it comes to mofuku there is a specific shade of black that is used that makes it mofuku. i believe she said that the proper mofuku shade was dyed once with indigo or blue, and then put black on top of it. non-mofuku blacks are created in different ways; the example she gave me was dyed green, and then red, and then black on top of it. i'm not sure how easy it is to differentiate between these two blacks, but i guess cooler blacks will be mofuku while warmer blacks will be non-mofuku.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:12 am 
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wow! teabot thanks a bunch, this is very good information! well from what you said i think that that crested one up there must indeed be some kind or category of mofuku (maybe?). it is a very rich cold black indeed. I wonder if some funerals are less formal than others...or if the number of crests one wears has to do with personal relation to the deceased?

the black iromuji i bought, i dont know if you can tell since the picture is so low quality, it does looks as though the shade of black is different and the black feels a bit "muted" (if black could be muted). I will confirm it for sure when it arrives (so excited for that). I could imagine to wear it semi-formally might not be a smart move. white tabi + collar will give a first impression of a mofuku kimono and personally if i saw such a thing i would immediately start looking for crests to see if the wearer did a no no! so an honorary komon it shall be! lol. thank you soooooooooooo much again teabot! now i know to go look for a nice non-metallic obi to pump it up with ( i almost bought a metallic fukuro for it last night but decided to hold out. thank goodness!!!). I also had no idea so much work and thought went into simply dying the fabric black. wow!

edit* just throwing in a side note. There is a thread about altering mofuku for regular wear. I am thinking now that the difference in the type of black will still make it obvious that the kimono was mofuku. that cold rainy day kind of black (thats the sensation i feel when i see mofuku)

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:30 pm 
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I have a quick question. If an all-black kimono with no crests is NOT mofuku then why is it still unacceptable (or at least slightly inappropriate) to wear?


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:38 am 
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Jaydencats wrote:
I have a quick question. If an all-black kimono with no crests is NOT mofuku then why is it still unacceptable (or at least slightly inappropriate) to wear?


I think it's just because of the automatic association someone raised in that culture would make of solid black kimono to mofuku, even if it's not actual mofuku. We have involuntary judgements we make about people wearing peculiar styles (e.g. Goth/emo culture often displays romanticized death/funerary rites/etc). However, the Japanese are typically very, very superstitious, so that would be my guess as to why they would be frowned upon.

That said, I would love to find a black iromuji. :( I'm not superstitious and do occasionally wear mofuku obiage/jime, since black is largely unoffensive (and/or stylish) to Western sensibilities. However, I would NEVER wear it in Japan, because a lot of it is about knowing one's audience. :)

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Last edited by Torahime on Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:02 pm 
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Ahh, I see. :] So it is not technically "bad" - it just might offend some people so it's best to play it safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Jaydencats wrote:
Ahh, I see. :] So it is not technically "bad" - it just might offend some people so it's best to play it safe.


Yes, exactly, or as Dumbledore would say, "An admirably succinct and accurate summary, yes." :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:23 pm 
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xDD Awesome!


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Hello guys!
While I was surfing on the net I came across a website where they sell mofukus calling them "kuromuji" and saying they can be used for elegant occasions. :ohno: :ermum 8O

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:27 pm 
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Image

I guess this is technically not all black, but it was listed with some mofuku obis that had definite sutras, etc. Anyway, I love the motifs and subtlety, and want to know if these designs are generally for mourning wear, or can be used for everyday summer wear. The obi is ro silk, and I wanted a black Nagoya for a black and pinkish hitoe kimono.

Thanks,

Clio


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:57 pm 
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To me its definatly mofuku!


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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:49 pm 
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The celebratory/auspicious motifs such as seigaiha and kikkô which seem way too uplifted for mourning. But what other event you could wear a fancy all-black obi for? Even in case it should read dark grey instead of funeral-proper black, it seems way too somber for other formal events... I'm confused... Although I would not shy from wearing it to town with non-black accessories for a muted chic ensemble. Reminded of the now-obsolete full black mon-nashi casual/semifancy ro townwear.

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:03 pm 
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Pinkuu Taanpiu Probably a linguistic mistake. Iromuji = solid coloured, so they made up the kuromuji = solid black and probably also mixed up with the word "kurotomesode" which is a kimono for celebration, but pattered at the hem However it is a mistake. It is mourning wear. But who would buy it then ?

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 Post subject: Re: Wearability of Mofuku (All Black Kimono/Obi)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:20 pm 
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What is the difference between kuromuji and kurotomesode then? I mean, kurotomesode has patterns at the hem which makes it not mofuku, but iromuji is just a solid colored kimono so kuromuji would be a solid colored black kimono but without crests right? So it wouldn't be mofuku aaaaand I just think I answered my own question.


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