Login * Member Blogs
FAQ *
   Search *
Member Stores
View unanswered posts
View active topics ::
 
IMPORTANT!

IMPORTANT NOTE: While email addresses are protected and hidden from view to both members and guest, if you have recently received unsolicited email contact from any member or former member, please forward it to us. Click to read more.

Becoming a member of the IG community is as simple as registering. To register, please click on "Login", and then "Register". Please note, registrations are activated manually by a moderator, so there may be a tiny delay in signing up and account activation. Registered, but having trouble with login? Please read this thread.

Members new and old, it's always a good time to re-acquaint yourself with the rules. New members, unsure about where to post stuff, or overwhelmed by the number of forums? Please check out the useful thread index.

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: [Knowledge] Counters for Kimono and Kimono-related items
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:32 am 
User avatar
Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:21 am
Posts: 1123
As those members who have some knowledge of Japanese know, Japanese uses counting words. These can be thought of a similar to words like "head" in the English "50 head of cattle," or "sheet" in "10 sheets of paper," but in Japanese, unlike in English, nearly all nouns require a counter, and there are lots of them.

Kimono-related counting words can be quite complicated, because they sometimes don't work as you might expect. Here is a list.

Fabric (反物 tanmono)
    counter:
    pronunciation: tan
    examples: ittan, ni-tan, san-tan
    notes: a tan is a bolt of fabric. Since they're long and cylindrical, they can also be counted with hon. For some reason, single bolts that are double length (the length of 2 bolts) are counted using hiki (疋 or 匹), meaning "head," which is a counter for animals.

Fans (扇子 sensu)
    counter: 本; 枚
    pronunciation: hon; mai
    examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon; ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai
    notes: choose the appropriate counter depending whether the fan is open or closed: hon (long/thin) implies it is closed, "mai" (thin/flat) suggests it's open

Footwear (履物 hakimono)
    counter:
    pronunciation: soku
    examples: issoku, ni-soku, san-soku
    notes: see Tabi for more info.

Fundoshi (fundoshi)
    counter:
    pronunciation: hon
    examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon
    notes: fundoshi can also be counted with "mai"; see Haori for more info. Colloquially, they can also be counted with 丁 chou, which is the counter for guns and tools....

Hakama ()
    counter:
    pronunciation: koshi
    examples: hito-koshi, ni-koshi, san-koshi
    notes: hakama are often counted using mai, but koshi, which means "waist," is the original term.

Han-eri (半衿)
    counter: 掛け
    pronunciation: kake
    examples: hito-kake, ni-kake, san-kake
    notes: han-eri can also be counted using mai, but only if they are not attached to the juban.

Haori (羽織)
    counter:
    pronunciation: mai
    examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon; ikkumi, ni-kumi, san-kumi
    notes: "mai" is used for counting thin, flat objects like sheets of paper

Haori-himo (羽織紐)
    counter: 本、組
    pronunciation: hon, kumi
    examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai
    notes: single haori-himo are counted with "hon"; "kumi" is used for counting pairs of himo. Pairs can also be counted with 揃え (soroe), 対 (tsui) or (sou).


Japanese umbrellas (和傘 wagasa)
    counter: 張り
    pronunciation: hari
    examples: hito-hari, ni-hari, san-bari
    notes: hari refers to things that spread, thus is the traditional counter for umbrellas. Nowadays hon (long/thin) is more common.

Juban (襦袢 juban; 長襦袢 naga-juban)
    counter:
    pronunciation: mai
    examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai
    notes: see Haori

Kamishimo ()
    counter:
    pronunciation: gu
    examples: ichi-gu, ni-gu, san-gu
    notes: gu is a counter for "sets" of clothing. It's also used to count things like suits.

Kimonos (着物 kimono; 長着 naga-gi)
    counter:
    pronunciation: mai
    examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai
    notes: see Haori and Montsuki sets

Montsuki sets
    counter: 揃い
    pronunciation: soroi
    examples: hito-soroi, ni-soroi, san-zoroi
    notes: "monstuki sets" refers to complete formal outfits: kimono + haori + hakama. Counting with soroi implies a complete set of formal or ceremonial clothing. Monstuki kimono by themselves can be counted using chaku

Obi ()
    counter:
    pronunciation: hon
    examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon
    notes: the counter hon is used for long, thin objects such as pencils and bottles. The pronunciation changes for each of the numbers as can be seen in the partial list above. Obi can also be counted with mai (on the grounds that they are thin and flat); jou, or suji can also be used, since these indicate things that are long and narrow.

Tabi (足袋)
    counter: 足
    pronunciation: soku
    examples: issoku, ni-soku, san-soku
    notes: the kanji means "foot." The counter soku is used to count pairs of tabi; single tabi are counted using mai. In older times, the counter ryou, meaning "both," was used to count pairs of items; this counter is apparently still used for a special kind of tabi I've never heard of called shitouzu.

Te-nugui (手拭い)
    counter:
    pronunciation: hon
    examples: ippon, ni-hon, san-bon
    notes: can also be counted with "mai" (see Haori for more info); or with suji and jou (see Tabi for more info).

Yukata (浴衣)
    counter:
    pronunciation: mai
    examples: ichi-mai, ni-mai, san-mai
    notes: see Haori

The information was translated from a chart on the Ginza Motoji website.

Of course, if you have fewer than 10 of an item, you can always count without counter words by using the traditional numerals hitotsu, futatus, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu, kokonotsu and tou. "2 kimonos" thus becomes "kimono futatsu" and "7 umbrellas" is "wagasa nanatsu," but if you have 11 of something, you're out of luck (and anyway, it's nice to know the right words for things).

[topic moved and title edited by bebemochi]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:45 am 
User avatar
Geiko-san
Geiko-san

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:55 am
Posts: 1756
Location: Seoul
Fav. Motif: Fujin & Raijin
thanks for that fuuga! very useful!! here are a few more i use when I'm searching the 'net:

Obi-jime(帯締め)
counter:

Obi-age (帯揚げ)
counter:

is for sets. for example 3点 is a three-piece set like yukata/obi/geta. you can also search for multiple items using this one. (kind of like looking for "hukuro" obi on ebay instead of "fukuro" obi.) for example: 着物 帯 3点 would be kimono obi set of 3.

_________________
Tumblr: http://ainokimono.tumblr.com/

Facebook: http://facebook.com/ai0kimono


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:38 pm 
User avatar
Minarai-san
Minarai-san

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:39 am
Posts: 425
Location: Indiana, USA
Fav. Maiko: Wakana
Fav. Geiko: Kikuno of Nara
Fav. Motif: Peony, peacocks, fish, matsu
Oh jeez, and here I was thinking -mai and -tsu was okay for everything. Thanks for the info! =D

And... and why aren't umbrellas counted with -hon?! They're practically the perfect long, cylindrical object! Japanese makes my brain hurt... :(


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:07 pm 
User avatar
Tayuu
Tayuu

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:45 pm
Posts: 4699
Location: France
Fav. Maiko: Umehisa, Mameharu, both Ayano
Fav. Geiko: Kotoha, Fukuyû, Ichiraku
Fav. Motif: Tsuta, Kiku leaves, Same
Not when they're open! (And isn't that what they're made for? What would be the point of using one otherwise?)

_________________
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:38 pm 
User avatar
Onesan
Onesan

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:39 am
Posts: 2819
Location: UK
Fav. Motif: bamboo, yabane, ivy, tachibana
I've never thought about this before, but it's fascinating. Thankyou! Lots to think about...

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:49 pm 
User avatar
Minarai-san
Minarai-san

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:45 pm
Posts: 379
Location: UK
Another interesting lesson on grammar!

I was reading the wikipedia article and I never knew about counting words also applied in Cantonese. But then I learnt it when I was a child via conversations with my family so its not surprising that I don't understand the grammar.

I will play more attention now!

_________________
All is fair in love, war and kimono auctions!!!!

You can find me in the following places Blogger, Etsy, Twitter and Deviantart


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:57 pm 
User avatar
Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:41 am
Posts: 927
Location: Finland, -09 area
Fav. Motif: Ume, matsu
Ems wrote:
Oh jeez, and here I was thinking -mai and -tsu was okay for everything. Thanks for the info! =D(...)

Well, the hitotsu futatsu mittsu etc. system does work for everything. Only you'll sound a bit... weird if you don't use counters, like, ever. It's like always saying "tabi by the amount of six" or something.

_________________
The flies will find you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knowledge: counting words and kimono
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:17 pm 
User avatar
Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:21 am
Posts: 1123
Peccantis wrote:
It's like always saying "tabi by the amount of six" or something.


Thanks for the chuckle.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 


Search for:
Jump to:  

All times are UTC [ DST ]


cron


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group