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 Post subject: [MT] Making kimono (patterns, cutting)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:08 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Near Pittsburgh
So here's my question: What are the structural differences between the different types of kimono?   Other then the type of material used, sleeve length, and being lined, are the different type of kimonos made differnetly? :???:

I was just wondering because I wanted to make myself an iromuji (I'm too poor to buy the real thing) and was going to use This as a guide to making it, but would that work as long as I line it and use non cotton mattieral? I'm just so confused as to what I can and cant use!

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place! It seemed like the best place to put it.   :]


[merged into the Making Kimono Mega Thread by bebemochi]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:58 pm 
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Minarai-san
Minarai-san

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:09 am
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Have you tried looking in the kitsuke knowledge bank? There's a thread about making kimono. :)
For what I know, there aren't substantial differences between the constuction of different kinds of kimono, apart, as you said, the sleeve length, the lining and so on... maybe there some differences about the collar construction between yukata and proper kimono, but I'm not sure... they were talking about it in the above thread.
By the way, if I remeber correctly some people used that site for making their kimono... :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:26 pm 
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Onesan
Onesan

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Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
the collar is one of the main differences- yukata is the only women's kimono that has the collar prefolded and stitched down. Komon and up have a collar that is twice the width (about 5 1/2 inches), that has to be folded to wear properly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:23 am 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:28 am
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I do have several kimono (komon) that definately aren't yukata that have prestitched collars so I don't think that the collar rule can apply to every kimono/yukata. They are newer lower end kimono made from polyester. I think maybe it is to make them easier to wear.


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 Post subject: Re: Differences?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:54 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:38 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Singapore
BigSistergoldfish wrote:
So here's my question: What are the structural differences between the different types of kimono?   Other then the type of material used, sleeve length, and being lined, are the different type of kimonos made differnetly? :???:

I was just wondering because I wanted to make myself an iromuji (I'm too poor to buy the real thing) and was going to use This as a guide to making it, but would that work as long as I line it and use non cotton mattieral? I'm just so confused as to what I can and cant use!

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place! It seemed like the best place to put it.   :]

[merged into the Making Kimono Mega Thread by bebemochi]


The website you mentioned is very good for yukata, but I don't think it will work for lined kimono like iromuji. The lining is not sewed separately and attached later but sewed together with the outer kimono. The site also does not have any instructions on how to sew the different parts (e.g. hakkake, doura, and the wrist openings) of the lining together  :cry: You might want to ask Takenoko if you want to know more about this.

Adding to what SONGBIRD516 said, yukata and kimono have their collars sewed on differently. If you read through the instructions for collar construction on the website, you will notice that they are for the construction of a "bachi" or plectrum collar, which is usually found on yukata. Lined kimono usually have a full width collar, and semi-formal to formal kimono (like iromuji) always have theirs full width as well. An exception to this rule are children's and men's kimono, which will have a half-width collar, even on formal kimono e.g. furisode. More on collars here

Have you ever sewed kimono before? If not, it is best to start with yukata and hitoe, which the site is most helpful with. Just to encourage you, the site has the most traditional yukata sewing instructions i've ever come across, so it's a very good guide for learning. It's difficult to pick up at first, so make sure you read the instructions to get a rough idea before cutting any fabric.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:18 pm 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

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Cutekitti wrote:
I do have several kimono (komon) that definately aren't yukata that have prestitched collars so I don't think that the collar rule can apply to every kimono/yukata. They are newer lower end kimono made from polyester. I think maybe it is to make them easier to wear.


I don't think it's necessarily related to age or material either, I have a vintage silk kimono that also has the collar pre-stitched.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:40 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:08 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Near Pittsburgh
Thank you everyone! *Bows*

I've never actually sewn a whole kimono before, I'm taking a stab a making a yukata right now, but I have been sewing for a few years now and thought that if I knew the differeneces I could work them in. :oops:

Thank you agian so very much! I guess I'll just have to wait to get an iromuji.  :cry:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:56 pm 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:31 pm
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Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Have you considered making an unlined iromuji? The instructions would be easier to adapt.

As for learning the structural differences, go on eBay, bid on the cheapest (including shipping) authentic kimono you can find--it doesn't have to fit, it need not be wearable, it could even be mofuku--and use it as a pattern. Pick apart one side, so you can see what's going on in there, and leave the other half intact. Takenoko and some other folks have made suggestions like this before, and it's how I get through the gaps in the patterns and instruction books I'm working with. (Except for the picking-apart; my first genuine kimono tended to fall apart for me. Helpful little gem.)

--Bai


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:25 pm 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:31 pm
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Location: Atlanta, Georgia
In answer to the pattern question, another short/long answer post. First, the short version:

The consensus on the forums in the past has been that Simplicity 4080 isn't very authentic.

The most-recommended pattern is Folkwear's "Japanese Kimono."

For the long version (for starters, anyway):
A list of all the commercial (meaning not free, not on the Internet) patterns people have found and asked about here...or that turn up on searching sewing pattern sites. I'm not counting anything like Burda's "kimono dresses" or Western clothes with kimono sleeves, just things that look promising enough to inspire (generally unwarranted) hope.

Butterick's 6698 "Japanese Kimonos" (Note the plural.)

Folkwear's 113 "Japanese Kimono"

John Marshall's "Make Your Own Japanese Clothes" (a pattern book, but widely available)

McCall's 4953 "Misses/Girls Kimonos"

Simplicity # 4080 "Geisha Costume and Dickey"

Simplicity 5839 "Kimono, Haori, Obi Sash and Tie"

I have another one at home...the name escapes me. The point is, so far, people give Folkwear thumbs up and Marshall's book usually gets good reviews except for the section on lined kimono. And we're looking only at what's available in English, of course...

More as I find them. If we get all the ducks in a row, it's easier to shoot them down, you know?

--Bai


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:22 am 
Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:13 pm
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Location: Hell
Sooo..I take it I  shouldn't  wear the simplicity 4080 one to a Japanese party....in Japan?I mean ...will I look stupid ...?
:???:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:17 am 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:31 pm
Posts: 802
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Kanohane, I don't know what people would think in Japan. I get the impression that a) kimono formality etiquette is a social minefield but b) Westerners can get away with a lot, and even be admired for sincere attempts.

On the other thread, you asked if this would look authentic--I'd say "no." To me, 4080 looks out of proportion. (Size of sleeves too wide in relation to the body, shape of sleeves themselves too square for that length, overall effect has a sharper V-neck, shoulder seam very high up on the arm, not enough body material in the overlaps to wrap properly, and body too short to wear with the ohashori fold at the waist.)

Myself, I wouldn't wear a kimono made from this pattern someplace I might meet other folks studying kimono. But I might have done a few years ago, before I became so focused on this hobby. Authenticity isn't everything. 4080 would still make a dandy Halloween outfit, just fine for someone who isn't interested in all the kitsuke involved. (How many hours of practice do you usually need before you can wear one costume? Real kitsuke is quite an investment in time.) Beyond that, nowadays, I probably wouldn't put all that effort and pricked fingers into a kimono that I couldn't wear socially. (Been there, done that, now it just takes up closet space.) Granted, it's a lot easier to say that with kimono already in my wardrobe!

The good news is that some of the best resources for sewing kimono aren't even listed in the pattern post. I can think of five online patterns off the top of my head, all of which are linked to from this thread already, or in threads collected in this one. Cheap as free, but priceless. Check them out, and good luck.

--Bai


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:43 pm 
Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:13 pm
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Wow thx XD
<___<
I think I'll look around a bit more~
...I found this XD
It has a pattern for Hakama,haori,and a yukata....
http://www.costuming.org/tutorials.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:45 pm 
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Shikomi-san
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:38 pm
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Location: Singapore
reposted here on request from bebemochi:

Cutting layouts for the main (rectangular) pieces for yukata. You will have to refer to other sources (e.g. john marshall's book or here ) for the marking and sewing directions.

1) Use this if you are 160cm in height or less. This is for 4 m of fabric.

Image

If you are shorter than 160cm, subtract twice the height difference from measurements A (body) and once of the height difference from measurement B (okumi). Otherwise you can just blouse the extra length over in the ohashori. Note that this layout is unsuitable for striped fabrics because the collar is cut perpendicular to the grain.


2) Use this if you are between 160cm and 170cm in height. You may need more fabric if you are taller than 170cm. This one will also work better for stripes, but it's for 4.5m of fabric.

Image

- if you are taller than 170 cm, add twice the extra height to measurements A (body) and once of the extra height to B (okumi).You may also need a longer collar piece if you are tall.

- if you are shorter than 170cm, subtract twice the height difference from measurements A (body) and once of the height difference from measurement B (okumi). Otherwise you can just blouse the extra length over in the ohashori.



This site has yukata directions in Japanese:
Orijinaru Yukata o Tsukurou (Let's Make an Original Yukata)

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Last edited by ensquared on Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:38 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Singapore
Bai Mianxi wrote:

Simplicity 5839 "Kimono, Haori, Obi Sash and Tie"

--Bai


I have this one. And used it ONCE. After finding out about the online tutorials I chucked it away in my drawer.

Problems:

-On the kimono there is no okumi, but you might be able to fake one by sewing a pinch of fabric where the seam should be.
-The collar opening along the shoulder line is curved, and not straight. You could try to cut a straight one.
- No directions for an overcollar.
-The haori pattern has no side panels.

Plus points:
To me the kimono is ok dimension-wise. The sleeves are an acceptable length and the collar is done yukata-style.

But if you can get better instructions FREE online, there's no contest, ne?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:57 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Thank you so much esquared! I know this will be very useful.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:26 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 am
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ensquared, I cut yukata from 110cm wide fabric more or less the same way as your second diagram, but I take both okumi panels from one long strip, and that way I can get the collar and collar cover from the other one, so I don't need any joins in the collar hidden by the cover.  Also, I cut these two strips from the centre of the piece, so I have a selvege along each sleeve panel and body panel (useful for hitoe, because it can go at the wrist opening end of the sleeve).

Your layout would work very well for fabrics where it would be good to get a pattern match across the CB seam - the CB seam replaced with a 1/2in tuck.

Great diagrams!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:45 pm 
Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:13 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Hell
I have the John Marshall's book now ,
but I don't understand the Collar thing..... :???:
I should make a rectangle for all parts where do I put the collar on it I always thought there was a piece that would go slanted in the front rectangles?....I might have misread it though.....because my collar doesn't look right on that O_O
Maybe i need to re-read it...
....run on sentences...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:21 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
Jimae Geiko

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 am
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Location: UK
Kanohane, does this diagram help?

Image

(It is from the French edition of my yukata booklet, so please ignore the shaded blocks which represent patchwork pieces!)

The dashed line is where the kimono is folded at the shoulder.  The solid angled line shows where the front of the collar is sewn on - a horizontal cut is made for the back of the collar.  All the excess fabric (what you describe as the rectangle parts?) lies inside the collar "V"when the kimono is finished, so if the collar fold is sewn in place (like for a bacchi collar) this excess ends up being folded too - you might find it easier to tack the front excess fabric to the collar temporarily while you fold and sew it. Run a line of taking along the V-line to hold the lining and outer fabric together while you sew the collar on as well as serving as a marker to line up the collar edge (you can get away with just marking a line if the kimono is hitoe). If you cut away this excess fabric for a V-shape, the collar would feel very flimsy and floppy, plus you wouldn't have the option of remaking the kimono like people used to do with komon, stripes etc., with the back becoming the front, and vice versa.

While the excess material helps to give the front parts of the collar some "body", I was taught to add a little piece of scrap fabric to the back of the collar, sewn to the kimono but again lying inside the collar, so the back has a similar bulk to the front, and of course the collar cover adds a bit more to that.  

I was also taught to sew the collar on in three steps - pin and sew the back of the collar as far as the shoulder fold line, then deal with pinning and sewing each section of the front.  It is easier to get the collar to sit properly if you do it like that.  You need to resist the temptation to allow too much collar fabric at the point where the collar line changes direction from the back to the fronts at the shoulder fold, or the collar will not lie properly.

Hope that makes sense! :]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:36 am 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:38 pm
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Location: Singapore
Takenoko wrote:
ensquared, I cut yukata from 110cm wide fabric more or less the same way as your second diagram, but I take both okumi panels from one long strip, and that way I can get the collar and collar cover from the other one, so I don't need any joins in the collar hidden by the cover.  Also, I cut these two strips from the centre of the piece, so I have a selvege along each sleeve panel and body panel (useful for hitoe, because it can go at the wrist opening end of the sleeve).

Your layout would work very well for fabrics where it would be good to get a pattern match across the CB seam - the CB seam replaced with a 1/2in tuck.

Great diagrams!


Yups, I prefer to cut the body panels that way so that the pattern is somewhat matched along the back seam. If you notice, the first diagram is for 4m of fabric, for people who want to save a bit of money and cut wastage. I tried but couldn't  get the okumi pieces in long piece  :cry: so the collar has to be made with joins.

The second diagram (for 4.5m) is more flexible, like you said, the okumi and collar pieces can be cut out from the middle strip so the body panels will have a selvage each  :)

thanks for your comment.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:17 pm 
Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:13 pm
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Location: Hell
Thanks XD That's just what I was looking for~
:lovelove

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:31 pm
Posts: 802
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
A question of proportion:

My current project is a plain "peasant girl" kosode, hitoe, from 60-inch-wide (before prewash) cotton or incredibly-cotton-like cellulositic fiber (fancy way of saying it doesn't melt, doesn't wrinkle as much as linen, and is absolutely not silk or wool). After prewash, I measured again, and wrote down 58 inches as the new width. Since the fabric length after squaring was my own height plus a little left over for the hem, I cut it in half, and cut one of the halves in half to make the two long pieces for the body.

At which point, I realized that they weren't really all that wide. Instead of 14.5 inches, it was more like 13.5. Clearly, my original fabric wasn't 58 inches wide, and adding the sleeves at 13.5 each, minus seam allowances, would leave me with a kosode far too small in wingspan. Fortunately, I hadn't cut down the other half of the bolt yet, so I am making the sleeves from wider material.

This does leave me with awfully square-looking sleeves and a shoulder seam slightly high on the shoulder, but with a much more workable amount of fabric around my waist and hips. The squarish sleeves aren't really a problem for a costume piece, so that's all right on this kosode. But I'd like to try a proper yukata next, and so I'm wondering:

How long can a sleeve be (long meaning shoulder to wrist in this case) relative to its width (dangling from the arm) without looking strange?

As part of the same problem, when adding "wingspan" for long arms on a skinny person--since the length is needed in the arms, not the shoulders--does any of the extra fabric go into the body?

--Bai


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:44 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
Jimae Geiko

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 am
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Bai Mianxi, this might help - kimono size table topic

You would need to sew the kimono so that, from roughtly the waist up, the shoulder/sleeve seam flared out to the maximum, so the round the hip measurement could be more fitted to the right size for you.  So look for the wingspan measurement that would work for you and go for the back width/hip measurement that would fit too, then flare out the kimono towards the top of the shoulder.  It sounds weird but it works.  I think Agnesia made a kimono like this recently - here's Agnesia's yukata with wide wingspan

My older kimono that were made to fit me are shaped like this. More recent ones have to have more width around the hip! :(


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 Post subject: Markings on Tsukesage bolt
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:25 am
Posts: 37
Location: Frisco, Texas
Okay, I finally got around to taking pictures of the markings on my bolt from Ichiroya.  There are also about 12 markings that are just dashes, and at first I just assumed that they are fold lines, but now I don't know because there are two between every marking, except for between markings 3 and 4 (there is no mark, but the distance between them is 144" or 366 cm).  Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean, and what the other dashes are for?


Image marking 1

Image marking 2

Image marking 3

Image marking 4

Image  marking 5 (looks like the reverse of #2)

Image marking 6

Image  bolt design

Oh, and I put the symbols in order from the outside of the bolt to the inside, so I have no idea if they are upside down or not.  Thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:01 am 
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Jimae Geiko
Jimae Geiko

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 am
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Chellian, I unrolled two of my tsukesage bolts to check the marks against the ones you posted (I've been away for a few days, so wanted to get back to my sewing room to double check before replying!).  They are marked the same as yours.  The bolt is dyed as follows - left sleeve, left body panel, okumi overlap panels/collar & collar cover sections, right body panel, right sleeve.  the dyed design on the left sleeve goes on the front of the sleeve (as worn), the (usually smaller) design on the right sleeve goes on the back - I'm sure you know that already!

The first section (slightly longer tham 1 metre) is for the first sleeve.

1) cut across here for the left front main panel hem.

2) where to make the neck slit cut on the left body panel

3) cut across here and 4) to separate long section you will use for okumi overlaps and collar parts from body panels - the next section is the right hand main body section

5) is the neck slit cut for the right hand main body section

6) cut across here to separate the right body panel from the other sleeve.

Cut the main panels apart before you cut the neck slit. :] Hope this helps!

EDIT: a note re cutting the collar/okumi strip for tsukesage - I had a quick look on the kimono size chart to check the various widths required for the finished width of the overlap panel and collar.  Overlap - 14.5cm for smallest size (82cm hip) and 16 for the largest (41in hip).  Collar is 11cm for all sizes. Of course the bolt width is about 36in minimum, so if you allow only 1cm seam allowances (4cm in total), there's at least 5cm left.  For those of us who need a bit more width on our kimono, there's a chance to make the okumi a bit wider by cutting the strip for the collar a little narrower and not putting so much fabric in the seam.  Just how much "extra" you can get here will depend on how the matching part of the pattern for the kimono front lines up between the overlap and the main panel.  It is also easier to get extra "wingspan" from tsukesage than houmongi because there's no pattern matching from the body to the sleeve.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Onesan
Onesan

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Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Lanthir wrote:
Cutekitti wrote:
I do have several kimono (komon) that definately aren't yukata that have prestitched collars so I don't think that the collar rule can apply to every kimono/yukata. They are newer lower end kimono made from polyester. I think maybe it is to make them easier to wear.


I don't think it's necessarily related to age or material either, I have a vintage silk kimono that also has the collar pre-stitched.


I'm going to refute what I said earlier, also. My ro kimono also has a collar that is prestiched down. But, I think that's because the fabric is so thin?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:32 am 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:25 am
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Location: Frisco, Texas
Takenoko thank you so much!  I find it very amusing that I have little worry about sewing a tsukesage and that all my issues lay with cutting the fabric!  But then again, I have never been very keen about cutting patterns and fabric (which is why about 40% of my projects don't get finished!)   :flustered


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:00 am 
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Maiko-san
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*laughs*  I'm the same way, Chellian.  I agonize over the cutting for weeks, and then get all the sewing for a project done in one or two nights.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Geiko-san
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Takenoko wrote:
The bolt is dyed as follows - left sleeve, left body panel, okumi overlap panels/collar & collar cover sections, right body panel, right sleeve.  the dyed design on the left sleeve goes on the front of the sleeve (as worn), the (usually smaller) design on the right sleeve goes on the back


So, is this always the same order for tsukesage parts :? ? In my bolt it seems the sleeve comes first, then the left body part and then maybe right body part. Then there is lots of plain fabric, maybe for right okumi and the collar? Then comes the left okumi and then the other sleeve. So, before I start cutting, I am asking if this organization is also possible since I have never done this before and am still a bit unsure which part goes where :unsure: .

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 Post subject: Re: [MT] Making kimono (patterns, cutting)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Geiko-san
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Well, I figured the arrangement must be different for my bolt. I still have one section uncut however. It's the okumi and the collar part, and there are no markings :ermum . So, for the okumi panels and the collar, are you supposed to cut the fabric exactly in half (width of the bolt is 38 cm) :? ?

And I am sure this has been asked before, but I cannot find it anywhere now: How much fabric you need for the collar total? Is a strip of fabric 19 cm X 300 cm enough? Or am I in trouble now?

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 Post subject: Re: [MT] Making kimono (patterns, cutting)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Furisode Shinzo
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Pulling this up
Somewhere I've seen a drawn pattern (might be from John Marshall's) specifically of how to sew up the curve of a sleeve. Does anyone have a link/a scan of this?

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 Post subject: Re: [MT] Making kimono (patterns, cutting)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:57 am 
Shikomi-san
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Currently on Ryujapan ebay site they are listing several "Neckband Teaching Materials." It consists of a kimono neckband and and what appears to be detailed instructions for how to make one and attach it to the kimono. Of course all in Japanese! I thought that some here might find this of interest. I would like to make a kimono eventually, and attaching the neckband seems by far the hardest part.

http://tiny.cc/5s26c


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