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 Post subject: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:25 am 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

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To start wit, I'm a bit odd in that i grew up in the S.C.A. surounded by historical fashions, seeing what things looked like and how they changed to what I see in magazines today. Unfortunatly, all the people in my area seem to be under the impression that in Japan, we ladies go right from the 12 layer look to edo style magicaly over night, and this just dosen't sit right in my mind.

I have tryed useing the web for help on this topic, only to come out more confused then when I started. Apparently the red hakama seen on women don't really exist acording to some till the 1600s, the obi in the Jidai Matsuri pictures is not corect, and some how the curve on the sleeve was a guys thing that turned into a ladies style, but none of the sites I see tell me how. And sadly, I don't have transport to a library right now or a book budget, so I am stuck with net as a resourse.

Can anyone send me to a reputable site that can clarify a few centurys of clothing?


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Geiko-san
Geiko-san

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:50 am
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The Kyoto Costume Museum, forum member Kugepoet's site and the Tousando board are good places to start, if you haven't already seen them. Some of the links here might be useful as well. :]


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:41 pm 
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Shikomi-san
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Thanks for the thought, but this actualy make it worse. If the periods loom was only 13-14 inches wide, how in the hell am I geting a body panle that's 17 inches wide and it being acurate for anything pre-Edo? Futher more, while the tales of genji is a great resorse for the 1000s, there still seems to be a masive blank spot for about the next 7 centuries in the english documentation. Such a big gap frustraits me to no end. Also, if women didn't put up their hair, what happens when they hve to change a poopy diper? I've seen what those contain, and nobody wants hair involved in that project, though I am willing to admit the method probably looked difrent then geisha, I can't seem to find out what it was. And how were they keeping the komons from gapping and having the breasts flopping out in a bow? mine won't stay without at least a 6 inch obi, and I'm not large on top.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Maiko-san
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1. People were smaller in the past. A 17-inch-wide body panel is pretty damn wide, even for modern Japanese people. Most Kimono bolts are narrower than this even today. But what's to say they didn't just sew them together?

2. Most people I know who have long hair tie it back when they want to keep it out of their way.

3. I don't have breasts, but I have no trouble keeping the front of my kimono closed with even a very narrow (non-obi) sash.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:33 pm 
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Shikomi-san
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In terms of smaller, if 4'11- 5' is arvage, I'm a half inch too tall and still being told that a modern kimono needs to be widened. Since I am silm also, something is wrong with the proportions if a 12 and a half inch wide finished body panle is to narow.

Having had hair to my waist and an art class, I can tel you that just a tie at the nape of the neck still leads to black hair with mariglod yellow tips, and interesting organic paterns in the wrong places.

As breasts shift inside clothing, they do fun things like poping out of the sleeve opening and nipples being fully visible when they pull the collar loose in the front. this is fantastic if you were a nursing mother, but I'm willing to bet nobody wanted to see whay grama was covering.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 am
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Kugepoet doesn't use modern Japanese fabric for her costume recreations, but finds fabrics which are suitable and then decorates them with stencilling etc. - there are some excellent demo pages on her website. So the 17in v 14in width isn't an issue.

I doubt very much that arisocratic Heian women ever had to change a diaper - that would have fallen to a servant...
:coy:

Most of my Japanese costume information came from books rather than the internet, which can be very frustrating, as I found when trying to research info for a Nara era costume. No book seems complete in itself either - given the timespan covered, maybe that's only to be expected. Sometimes its a case of not knowing what words to put into the search engine! Going back to the point about fabric width, I would like to recreate some earlier era ensembles, but won't necessarily try to use modern fabrics for those - even if the width were correct, finding a suitable fabric pattern wouldn't be that easy, expecially on a small budget.

I found Fuyou's excellent photo set from the Jidai Matsuri pretty useful.

Re keeping kimono closed, all the images I've seen of 17th century kosode show garments that are very wide in proportion to their wearers,even to the point of the okumi being slightly turned back on the right when worn (to show the lining). They are so voluminous, and with several layers there wouldn't be a problem keeping them closed, even with a narrow obi.

Little snippets, but maybe they help.
:]

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:29 pm 
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Minarai-san
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I agree with Takenoko that it is highly unlikely a noble woman would be involved in anything messy. If you look at The Costume Museum's outfits for commoners, you'll see that they have much, much simpler clothing and their hair is depicted as being tied up.

As for things shifting under loose clothing, I can't recall reading anything specific about pre-Edo undergarments. Possibly they used the same wrap-around style chest and hip cloths (sarashi and koshimaki) that are now considered "traditional."

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:44 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

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With regards to the Jidai pics: WOOT!! DATES INCLUDED!!! Not that I mind looking at them in general, but the are way more useful as reserch when you know a when to go with the clothing.

The kimono looks like it was made with a full body width okumi, and thats where the extra width actualy comes from, so in theory, a striped kimono bolt would work most of the time after Heian, though before seems like a whole difrent color tequnique. The shorter sleeves are still a bit confusing because of this, since they seem to come to the wrist, but it's also raining so it could be cold and the arms are held in a way that makes it look that way. And the courtasan definitly has her hair up and is pre-Edo.

As far as nobles not being involved in messes, I am skeptical. In fudal era, it was always posible to suddenly find that you are no longer in power and you lost your money. The new class of nobility would probably not had the spare money for servants till after they clame power, so before that it would be a mother's duty to care for kids, and after loss of power, the old noble would have to handle it herself. We also know that women did caligraphy, and any little breeze would have hair throug the ink and acrost your paper, even if it was just a servant coming in to bring tea.

In terms of wraping, I haven't found a clame for or against it, but in practice it would work. Otherwise, the white layer has to have something extra in it that keeps it closed even if everything shifted on top. The angles on some of the outer layers would just gap in a small breeze, so maybe the white part got hiden ties for modesty.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:26 am 
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Jimae Geiko
Jimae Geiko

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Have a look at Kugepoet's "Kosode Made Simple" page. Most of your points re kosode dimensions, fabric resources etc. are dealt with there. A very useful page, also with many costume links and fabric sources.

The small sleeves on kosode still appear to reach the wrist because the body is so much wider.

Japanese history page

I'm not an expert on Japanese military history/medieval civil wars, but I kinda get the impression that if your family were on the losing side and fell from power, you wouldn't only loose you wealth but your life as well most likely. The young heirs of a loosing side would be prime targets for slaughter. Maybe someone else can throw a bit of illumination on this period?

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:57 am 
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Maiko-san
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Quote:
In terms of smaller, if 4'11- 5' is arvage, I'm a half inch too tall and still being told that a modern kimono needs to be widened. Since I am silm also, something is wrong with the proportions if a 12 and a half inch wide finished body panle is to narow.


12.5 inches is quite wide for a body panel; I'm 6ft tall and mine are only slightly wider than that. You do mean a single body panel, right? Measured from the seam at the centre back to the seam at one side of the body?

Quote:
Having had hair to my waist and an art class, I can tel you that just a tie at the nape of the neck still leads to black hair with mariglod yellow tips, and interesting organic paterns in the wrong places.


Maybe when they needed their hair out of the way they tied it and tucked the hair it under one layer of clothing at the back. Maybe they wore a hat. Maybe a servant held it. I doubt it was a problem, and I have grave doubts about formerly noble women being reduced to changing diapers.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:19 am 
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Jimae Geiko
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There are lots of woodblock illustrations showing women with "scarves" of various kinds covering their hair - tenugui towels are still used for this today, if you need to do anything dusty/dirty. And one of the ensembles worn at the Jidai Matsuri involves a kind of turban-like white headcovering which totally covers the hair. So lots of traditional ways to make sure you hair doesn't get messy/dirty.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:40 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

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James, yes, that is the finished single body panel. It's about the sise of the first kimono I got and learned to do the tuck with so it's what I find most comfortable for the more modern traditional that is covered in more detail on this site. It puts my sleeve seem a bit loewr then the center of my upper arm and the cuff at my wrist bone with a sleeve thats about the same width as the body. I may not have a kimono that fits me corectly by modern dressing standards though, but if I were to just shorten the sleeve to older standards, it would sit a bit below my elbow.

Either the wider okumi being set in a bit higher on the body adds alot more to the shoulder, or the loom information is wrong, because I'm not seeing any extra seams on the museum pieces wich are displayed flat enough to see the edge of the side seam or room to get the extra width in the body from the fabric. It's just not looking phisicaly posible to get the dementions the S.C.A. says I should from period 13-14 inch panels, so something must be missing from the information.

Takenoko, thanks again for the matsuri pics that do include the cortesan with hair up and the scarves. I have no ideal how to make the scarf work, but the S.C.A. pepole in my area were trying to say hair was NEVER restrained till the 1700s, but anyone who has had hair in close to the length we see in paintings knows that just dosn't work. Sometimes, it just needs to be kept out of whats being done, though for court, I can see loose and free being fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:40 pm 
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Maiko-san
Maiko-san

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In Tale of Heike (sp? I haven't read it in a long time) the young heirs and even rather distant relatives of those who fell from power were killed. :( (Hard luck on the kids- they didn't do anything. :( )

I've worn a handmade sort-of-kosode-sorta-of-nagajuban-sort-of-dounuki before- it was actually supposed to be a nagajuban originally, but I ended up making it too wide, so I just made it longer than normal, too. I wear it with ohashori beneath kimono, which makes built-in waist padding and is comfy and warm. It's a sewing disaster and I'm a bit scared that someone from SCA might see it, but it works great. ^^; Anyway, on to my point: because it's wide enough that both ends are on my sides when it's worn, I don't even have to wear an obi to keep it closed- I just wear a koshi-himo for the ohashori and it behaves nicely. I'm guessing that period kosode were probably like that- if they're big enough, they stay closed. Many of the problems we have with kimono are probably because people these days are so much taller than they used to be, and antique kimono are so small. D:

Another way to make wardrobe malfunctions less likely is to wear sarashi (chest binding stuff.) I haven't been able to buy any of the real stuff, but the satin baby blanket binding they sell in WalMart's sewing section works great, and it's very comfortable. ^^; It's what I usually use, since kimono bra and sarashi are a bit hard to find. It's inherently adjustable, too, so it won't be unusable if there's a random weight fluctuation or you have a sore muscle or something. Just fold the very ends of the binding over twice and stitch over them (I used a sewing machine, but it can also be done by hand.)

For intermediate costume designs:
Kamakura etc.
Edo

Also, there's the SCA-JML Mailing List. They know a lot of stuff. There have been *a few* topics there which I later found to be incorrect, but for the most part the information there is accurate, and the advantage of its newsgroup style is that you can email back questions, which will be submitted for the group and the q & a are archived online for other people to view.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:31 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

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If your picture is to be belived for the kamakura era, then the S.C.A. has been telling me to make a men's proportion kosode. The woman's sleeves apear to be the same width as her body panel, much like the modern version, and that would alow a period panel size to make the correct shape for a period sized woman, but put the men's kosode in museums at the sleeve size in the loom pic I found (at near the elbow), making them more practical for work.

Also, we are talking about the same group who tryed to tell my mother that germans weren't useing a-line skirts in luther's lifetime inspite of the fact that he was friends with a painter who depicts his wife in both a-lines and cartridge pleated skirts. Likewise, the current japanese info was great if you were a samurai, but not so good if you were a wife of a samurai. Just because a few women did dress like men dose not mean we all should.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:44 pm 
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Maiko-san
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yumehime wrote:
If your picture is to be belived for the kamakura era, then the S.C.A. has been telling me to make a men's proportion kosode. The woman's sleeves apear to be the same width as her body panel, much like the modern version, and that would alow a period panel size to make the correct shape for a period sized woman, but put the men's kosode in museums at the sleeve size in the loom pic I found (at near the elbow), making them more practical for work.

Also, we are talking about the same group who tryed to tell my mother that germans weren't using a-line skirts in luther's lifetime inspite of the fact that he was friends with a painter who depicts his wife in both a-lines and cartridge pleated skirts. Likewise, the current japanese info was great if you were a samurai, but not so good if you were a wife of a samurai. Just because a few women did dress like men dose not mean we all should.


I subscribe mainly for the links. ^^; The Costume Museum is really accurate, though, so you might try looking through their stuff. I used to freak out over the idea of making something without patterns, but it's actually pretty easy to make stuff just by looking at photos and messing with fabric, so maybe try that?

You also might try browsing Ichiroya.com- from time to time they list "stage costumes" which often take the form of historical garment reproductions (i.e., for someone who plays a Daimyo in a play or something.) A few months ago they actually listed some red nagabakama for $30.00 USD! I almost bought them before realizing that they were second-hand pants worn by sweaty actors on stage. ^^; They've also listed a bunch of similar things before. Rakuten International Shipping Services and Yahoo! Japan Auctions also list period item reproductions occasionally. I never actually buy them since they're so expensive, but I look at the photos for reference to sew my own. ^^;

:katana: <-- inserted because my sister liked it.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:12 pm 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

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Designing from a photo is comparativly easier then trying to work from a painting thats starting to lose color and crack. The problem I was having with the period kimono was that the dementions, when converted to historical panel size, would't make the woman's sleeve fall where it should on the historical body size. While I agree that if you are biger then the body of the period, you should scale up the panel to get the proportion, in this case the base proportions would never have given the look of the paintings, where as the yukata widths for sleeves and body will, and the okumi just gets douled and longer.

The hakama I think I can make since it's still rectangles and I know how big a panel was, so I know how wide to make 8 sections +2 half sections, and from there it's alot like making a pleated skirt. The matsuri pics will let me estimate the obi, and since it wasn't a standard width yet, it's close enough. I think for under the white layer, I will keep useing a tube-top-as-sarashi for security sake, and hopefuly someone will figure out if that was done back then. In terms of S.C.A., many of the authenticity police only really know elizibethan, but like to think they have justifacation to rag on others garb. the next one who trys that on me will be told where they can shove their lack of info, and i recomend other members do as well.

And as mom always says, if strangers are getting into your under garments, you have bigger concerns then authenticity, so keep your sort of juban if it works, tell off those who argue.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:33 am 
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First Mate Boobie-san (Mod)
First Mate Boobie-san (Mod)

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I'm getting confused trying to keep track of everything, as it seems to me that you're referencing specific kimono, but I don't know which one you mean.

Which look exactly are you trying to find out more about? Kamakura? Nanboku-chou [which is so short I doubt much changed]? Muromachi?

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:28 am 
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Shikomi-san
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All of them really, but for the most part, it often looks more like the kimono was dressed difrently, rather then made difrently. There is only so much you can do with construction when you only work in rectangles.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:45 am 
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Maiko-san
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If you could link to the images, that would be great. (I'd like to see examples, too.) PhotoBucket.com is really great for hosting stuff, if you happen to have an account there.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:09 am 
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Jimae Geiko
Jimae Geiko

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yumehime wrote:
it often looks more like the kimono was dressed difrently, rather then made difrently.


Both actually. Kugepoet's kosode page (links posted previously) covers this in admirable detail, especially with a view to recreating 16th and 17th century kosode. While the construction order of the kosode looks similar to modern kimono (I can't say for certain that the lining is split into doura (upper) and hakkake (lower) lining), the main difference is in the width of the panels - both sleeve and body - and the width of the collar. All these points are covered on Kugepoet's page so anything I write would just be repetition, especially since she created that page for people wanting to recreate kosode - something I haven't done yet, but is on my list!

Supergrouper posted a very good link to the Cotume Museum's pictures. You will have to use the menu down the left of that page, as when I click to see different costumes via the menu, the URL isn't changing. ("Woman in everyday wear Kosode and Mobakama" was a useful image for me, as I now understand 100% that those "hakama" of that era really are wrapped skirts, just like the Nara ones!) "Courtesan" gives a sense of how voluminous those kosode were.

I've scanned these images from that wonderful little book showing the Jidai Matsuri women's costumes, which are copied from museum originals (Muromachi and later)/historical evidence (pre Muromachi). Note the slight changes in the shape of the kosode and how it is worn.

sorry, i'm going to have to post this text now, without pictures, so I don't loose it - my internet connection is very slow for broadband and it needs all the free bandwidth I can give it to get the scans uploaded into Photobucket! I'll be back soon to edit this.

UPDATE - OK, it's nearly 11.30 and the last image is almost uploaded.

Kamakura era - the outer garment is not kosode, which will be one of the underwear layers in this ensemble. But I've included it so you can see why "kosode" was considered such a "small sleeve" by comparison. Shibori tie dye.

Image

Muromachi kosode ensemble, with that headscarf I mentioned earlier (sorry, I don't know its name). Shibori tie dye.

Image

Another Muromachi kosode. In all the first three pictures, note the different length of the kosode worn under the outer layer and how much it varies. Can you see how the left okumi and end of the collar is folded back to show the lining?

Image

Muromachi kosode ensemble, full tsujigahana tie dye design.

Image

Momoyama kosode. Looks like applique of karaori brocade (top and bottom of kosode) or similar.

Image

Another Momoyama kosode, this time looks like embroidery. Image

Early Edo courtesan in kosode. I love these pictures because the really show just how voluminous kosode are compared with modern kimono.

Image

Image

Early Edo furisode - note how the sleeve is sewn to the body like a modern kimono. Back then, furisode sleeves were only about 45cm/18in long.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:39 am 
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Shikomi-san
Shikomi-san

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Ok. the women with the shorter sleeves also have them sitting higher on the arm then most of the paintings I see, but the sleeve also looks almost like a 2/3- 3/4 length rather then a 1/2 like a mans sleeve. Though the close detail on the coutasan apperars to have a much wider collar, and that seems to put her outer layer a bit further out on the shoulder. Also, thatnks for the hair detail. In the matsuri pic it looked more like a bun, but this non-rainy shot gives me a better look at how to do it.

Also, i just tryed to make a obi like I saw in the matsuri pic and got..... a short hanhaba with no reveres side. I wonder if the early hanhaba were originaly a woman's atempt at a reversable obi, just fold out the color you want.

Thanks for the really pretty pics, they help things make better sense in my head, though the scarf thing is still a mistery. Maybe if I squint just right at enough of them I can see the method.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:25 pm 
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Shikomi-san
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I just tryed making an under garment with the full panel okumi, and man dose it feel diffrent to dress. I plan to leave th sleeves off for now and just see how it handles under something


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Jimae Geiko
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yumehime wrote:
the women with the shorter sleeves also have them sitting higher on the arm then most of the paintings I see, but the sleeve also looks almost like a 2/3- 3/4 length rather then a 1/2 like a mans sleeve.


I'm a bit confused now - in all the pictures I posted, the sleeve/body seam doesn't sit any higher up the arm than on modern kimono - the seam looks lower to me infact (which would make more sense with the body panels being wider too).

The sleeve length certainly is shorter than modern tomesode or furisode - is that what you mean when you describe a man's sleeve as "1/2"? A man's sleeve is slightly less than half the length of a furisode sleeve.

Re making an undergarment with a full width okumi, as you can see from the photos I posted and Kugepoet's anlysis of kosode, the okumi is only a half width. If you want to be historically accurate, which I thought was your aim, using a full width for the okumi isn't going to do it. If you think that the 16 1/2in full width plus a half width for the okumi won't give you enough overlap, you would be better starting off with a slightly wider panel (say 18in) and using half of that, rather than using full width for everything - it would give a more authentic result.

How much overlap do you really need though? I'm making a yukata for a giant of a man at the moment. He is 6ft 5in tall and 60in around the waist, but the (cut) panel width for that is still only 17in instead of the usual 14 1/2in.

Many years ago I went to a lecture by a costumer well known on the UK Victorian festival circuit and she made the very worthwhile point that you should strive to base your costumes on historical research rather than copying features seen on other re-enactor's costumes, which could easily result in a mismash of styles and eras. So taking time to research the era you are aiming for throughly now is going to give more historically accurate results in the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Hey, does this help?

Quote:
The "kosode" (=short sleeves) garment is an underwear in the Heian era.

>From the Kamakura era to the Muromachi era, the "kosode" garment turned into an outer-garment gradually.

It evolved into the clothes of "mono-color and without patterns" to "multi-color with patterns" in the historical process.

In order to make its form, the unit of the two width of body and half width of sleeve is used by cutting of clothes on the basis of 45 centi-meter width.

Its "sode-guchi (=cuff)" is made narrow; its "erikataaki" vacancy of a collar is narrow; its "eritake," collar length is long; its "tate-zuma", the portion of the right-and-left both ends of the skirt of clothes, is short.

Moreover, its width of "okumi" portion is broad, its "uki", the length from back sewing to a cuff, is short and the width of body is also broad.

As a matter of fact, it is not a confortable to wear.

For this reason, it is probably the vestiges of the "uchiki" garment as everyday wear that a "uchikake" dress is worn without fastening a "obi" belt on a "kosode" garment.

>From the Momoyama era to the Edo era, the "kosode" garments came to be worn frequently.

The width of cloth changed to 33centi-meters width which is convenient to wear clothes.

The form of it was also established and it has resulted as it is by today.

As for the pattern of dyeing, the "tsujiga-bana" dyeing method of the Muromachi era, the combination of embroidery and "harihaku (=pressing foil)" of the Momoyama era, which is called the "nuihaku (=sewing foil)"method, the "kara-ori (=Chinese textiles)" silk fabrics, which appear like embroidered, were used.

In the early times of Edo era, since the patterns on the cloth were made by using variegation, "surihaku", and embroidery, all the cloth of a material was completely covered by them.

There, the beautification to a kind of limit was created.

This is so-called "Jinashi-kosode of Keicho".

Having been started by the "tsujiga-bana -zome" dyeing method, the dyed patterns of "kosode" reached its highest tide in the "Kosode of Eicho".

This technology disappeared according to other dynamic causes, such as the extravagant prohibition law, and the automatic cause by the start of "Yuzen" dyeing method.

As regard to the dyed "kosode" garment of the beginning of modern times, the later term of Muromachi era is its eraly term and, the peak time of the Momoyama era is the mid term and the Keicho period of Edo era is the last term.

The figure in the photo wears the restored "Kosode of Keicho" which united the strong point of the "tsujiga-bana-zome" dyeing method and the "nuihaku" method of the peak time of Momoyama era.

The figure wears a slender "obi" belt; the woman should wear one more piece of "kosode" garment when going out.

The hair style of the woman is an old-fashioned straight hair which is expressing that she is the one of the upper class.


From here: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/2new.htm, linked from here

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:46 am 
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I am doing reaserch, and in the museum examples as well as the matsuri examples, that is not a half width okumi. It seems to range from 2/3 to full in these examples. It's also set in all the cases I can see right at the shoulder fold or really close to it rather that 20cm down, so thats how I made it. When I put it on, I can get the same type of blousing efect seen in images and still have room to turn back one okumi to show off lining if I had it, and my seams fall in the same place as the matsuri pics show. I used the 33 cm as the pannel size, just like I do for the modern style.

The cutting on the bias also confuses me. If you did thet, alot of fabric would be left, and it seems like the body panels would have to be patchworked together to get the right lenght, even for a 4'11 woman. It also puts the fabric way wider then any loom refrences I've seen so far, but I will admit that the loom size could be a mistake, but an 18 inch body panle on a person from the time would put the sleeve past the elbow making a half sleeve work, but also leaving a masive amount of bunching when tyed. Though I wonder, why would Japan drop the fabric size to 13 inch from 18 inch when clothing could have just been cut smaller? Wouldn't it make alot more sence to just change the cut rather then the whole loom size?


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:27 am 
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Quote:
Though I wonder, why would Japan drop the fabric size to 13 inch from 18 inch when clothing could have just been cut smaller? Wouldn't it make alot more sence to just change the cut rather then the whole loom size?


Why would you bother making it at 18 inches, only to have to cut off approximately 5? Which would also leave a raw edge and not a finished selvage, and you'd have to make sure you cut a piece of fabric 10 to...what... what's furisode length kiji? 14? 16? meters long perfectly straight. Taking it into the seam would probably be more fabric than it's worth (an extra 10" of fabric in the seams? that just feels excessive to me, and I wonder if it would change the drape/hang of the garment). It just doesn't make sense to me to do it the way you're suggesting. To me, the thing that would make the most sense would be to keep two different sized looms, and for large people (say, sumo wrestlers) use the large loom, and for the general population, use the smaller one. Less work in the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:39 am 
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Iyolin wrote:
Quote:
Though I wonder, why would Japan drop the fabric size to 13 inch from 18 inch when clothing could have just been cut smaller? Wouldn't it make alot more sence to just change the cut rather then the whole loom size?


Why would you bother making it at 18 inches, only to have to cut off approximately 5? Which would also leave a raw edge and not a finished selvage, and you'd have to make sure you cut a piece of fabric 10 to...what... what's furisode length kiji? 14? 16? meters long perfectly straight. Taking it into the seam would probably be more fabric than it's worth (an extra 10" of fabric in the seams? that just feels excessive to me, and I wonder if it would change the drape/hang of the garment). It just doesn't make sense to me to do it the way you're suggesting. To me, the thing that would make the most sense would be to keep two different sized looms, and for large people (say, sumo wrestlers) use the large loom, and for the general population, use the smaller one. Less work in the long run.


@_@ This is dizzying. I'm so grateful for the WalMart fabric aisle right now. TT_TT And sewing machines. Too... much... calculation... @_@

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:08 am 
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Actualy, if you took 1 1/2 inch on each side, it would give you a 13 inch total after sewing. That may be just a bit wider in the body then standard, and a rather generous seam allowence, but not as bad as trying to tuck 5 inches in on one side. also, where did the himo come from if not from the same fabric you made the garment out of? I always thouth since they were so visible that any leftover fancy fabric would be converted into them. I have been lead to beleve that the fabric made special just to be a closure happened about the same time the hanhaba became populare, though I could be wrong on that too.

like the painting
Image

The women are wearing 2 color himo, and that may be dye, or it may be pached together from leftovers. The little kids in green w/red and red w/white look like they have leftovers from the over and under to make the bows in the back. This would also explain why an actor would use a back bow in the first place to look "childish" since thats the best place to tye one to keep the kid from taking it appart(I have first hand expirience on this point). I also see no evidence of the red hakama or tabi on this one, but it looks like a summer image, so it could be too hot for them. The confusuing part comes in on the arm proportion witch looks much to short for a human arm, and has me questioning the seem placement because of it. Then again, that could just be due to my work in human figure drawing that leaves me more critical then avrage of other work.


Last edited by yumehime on Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:27 am 
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Koshihimo used to be made from ruined kimono, not from brand new fabric. The idea of making pretty koshihimo from brand new fabric is a recent concept that came about from the fact that most people don't salvage ruined kimono but just throw them away. Back in the day when everyone lived in kimono, the basics like under-garments and such came from older kimono.

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Ok, I'm back from an event and still a bit confused, but I thought I would share what I learned, witch came from conversation and what I wore.

As a base I used my white sleeveless synthetic tester with full panel okumi and it stayed put all day. Over that I used my poweder blue cotton modern juban with fixed himo, but I had to do a careful tuck in the front as I tyed since I built it's collar at a fist away from my neck, but that also stayed neat for me. Next was my brown striped winter one with a full lining, witch stayed and told me even thin silk is way warmer then I ever belived. Finaly, the poly/rayon w/cotton backing kimono I made from geisha pics servered as my "coat" layer. I was warm as long as I was indors(even near doors), my collar stayed beautifuly aranged to show all my colors evenly, and my sleeves did that lovely peaking in the back with all 3 layers. The hair could have been better, and my first attempt at tabi was a bit rough, but the overal look was as close as posible to the courtasan without fully new kimonos made with the bigger okumi and extra curvy sleeves.

Also, the okumi NEEDS to be a few inches wider to turn it out, otherwise, you get the same look as a geisha in a padded hem. The body seam on the matsuri photos looks like it sits in about the same place as the more modern pieces, but the okumi either comes futher around the body to the side of the hip, or it gets turned out and the folded edge sits on the front of the hip like the finished edge of modern ones. Since this sometimes only means adding 2-3 inches to the okumi, a 2/3 panel makes sense.

I was told at the event that my body/sleeve seam was actualy just right for period construction, even though it was built as a modern and that my full length sleeves were ok because it's winter. The same woman told me that the half panel sleeves are only used in the warm months, simalar to a modern yukata. Aditionaly, she says the period fabric ranged from 17 inch-22 inch and the extra was in fact left in the seam allowence because when the kimono was taken appart for cleaning, all the pieces were relocated so they would all get even wear, wich won't work on many of the patterns I've seen on more recent (and just as pretty) kimonos since the design won't meet right. The extra seem allowence also made resizing and patching quite easy, but acording to her, the half inch stich size also helps, and I would think such a large stich would make gapping a bigger issue so the extra tuck in the seam may even be neede.

This is of course word of mouth so I will continue looking for a backup resourse, but I can see logic in it, so I plan to experiment on my white tester with it on the okumi to see how it works in reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:58 am 
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I would definitly want to use the 1/2 inch stich if I really had to take appart my clothing every time I washed. I cut some of the mass of navy linnen look cotton to the 18 inch panel size, and I think it will take me less time to sew it then it did to iorn it. The seam looks a bit od to me now that I have my back seam in, but the 1 1/2 inch seam allowence also looks much less silly now that I see it in relation to the stitches. I still need to check the sleeves I can see to find a good length now that I have an aproxamate width, but I have another 10 yards or more to play with on that. If I don't really like it, or if I find out I got missinformation again, it just so happens that acording to my step-dads suit jacket, 18 is a great size panel to give him a new yukata as well, so I can just tweek it back to his size.

The resulting 15 inch wide body panels don't work. The body's edge ends up on the hip in the same place the okumi usualy sits. That puts even a half width okumi on the back of the body and it ends about my spine. Lucky thing the stiches are so big and resizing will be quick.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:26 am 
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yumehime, sounds like your ensemble worked for the SCA event! Sometimes going for the right shape, rather than having to have every layer and detail perfect, works fine for re-enactment. Did you get any photos?

Quote:
in the museum examples as well as the matsuri examples, that is not a half width okumi. It seems to range from 2/3 to full in these examples. It's also set in all the cases I can see right at the shoulder fold or really close to it rather that 20cm down


I've gone back through "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts" (Heibonsha survey of Japanese Art series) as there are a lot of images showing the front views of kosode of the Momoyama and Muromachi eras as well as views from the back (as the reproduction kosode are shown in the Jidai Matsuri book, where part of the front body panels are folded back against the sides of the kosode, perhaps making the okumi part look wider - in the photos in the Heibonsha book, the kosode seem to be photographed from a lower point, so the folds back at the hems are visible). The okumi definitely look like they were cut at half the width of the body panels, as they would be today, but, just as with modern kimono, they aren't sewn to the very edge of the front panels, but are set back several inches. This probably makes them look more like they are 2/3 of the width of the part of the front body panel that remains visible after the okumi are sewn on. After all, the seam allowance even on a modern okumi panel is only 1cm on the front edge and 1cm where it is sewn to the front of the body panel, while the body panel's seam allowance at that point is a lot wider - about 2in. The body side seam widths vary on modern kimono and presumably they could have varied on earlier kosode. The centre back seam doesn't vary and I haven't seen a centre back seam wider than 1cm approx. on any kimono, 19th or 20th century.

Here's a couple more scans from the Jidai Matsuri book where the front seam is quite easy to see - both Momoyama era.

Image

Image

Quote:
The cutting on the bias also confuses me.


Same here! I can't work out what part is cut on the bias - nothing is usually bias cut for kimono.

The painting shown here in colour, "Maple Viewing at Mount Takano", a folding screen by Kano Hideyori, Tokyo National Museum, is included in the Heibonsha book I mentioned earlier, on page 33, but in black and white. In the black and white print, there is more detail showing in those "himo" and they look more like braided obi, of the kind that were called "Nagoya" obi (not the same thing or related to modern Nagoya obi!) The figures on the right (red check kosode and brown patterned kosode) appear to have braided ties/obi but the figures on the left look like theirs are fabric - there are no marks to suggest braiding in the painting. So perhaps some of these are braided obi and some are woven - like the narrow obi worn in the Jidai Matusuri photos I posted earlier. Braiding could help explain the two colour effect.

Half inch long stitches sound huge! Most of my handsewn kimono aren't particularly small stitches though and I have one late Meiji hemp kimono with stitches nearly a quarter of an inch long, but that's the longest I've seen. Without getting very close to an early kosode, it would be impossible to tell the stitch length. I've just come back from seeing a sashiko exhibition at York (UK) today, with many vintage sashiko garments around 100 years old, where I could get close, and the construction stitches (not the sashiko) weren't large.

EDIT - I did some extra reading to check up on the information you were given by the woman you met at the event.

Quote:
I was told at the event that my body/sleeve seam was actualy just right for period construction, even though it was built as a modern and that my full length sleeves were ok because it's winter.


Depending on exactly the era you were doing (Muromachi? Momoyama?), by the end of the seventeenth century, the sleeve width is like a modern kimono - but with a more pronounced curve at the corner.

Quote:
The same woman told me that the half panel sleeves are only used in the warm months, simalar to a modern yukata.


I can't find any evidence to support this idea. The half width used for the kosode sleeve seems to be a feature consistent throughout the Muromachi and Momoyama eras, always combined with the wider body panels, although the length of the sleeve varies after the introduction of the furisode. Alan Kennedy in "Japanese Costume" (Greenwich, 1994) writes about the different kinds of kosode and makes the seasonal distinction between katabira (unlined summer kosode) and other kinds - katabira were often hemp - but says nothing about changing sleeve widths except in the context of the sleeves becoming wider as the body width decreased. Unfortunately the book is "outsize" and too big to scan easily for pictures.

Quote:
Aditionaly, she says the period fabric ranged from 17 inch-22 inch and the extra was in fact left in the seam allowence because when the kimono was taken appart for cleaning, all the pieces were relocated so they would all get even wear, wich won't work on many of the patterns I've seen on more recent (and just as pretty) kimonos since the design won't meet right.


Many of the kosode worn by the upper classes as outer garments wouldn't have been cleanable anyway - those with embroidery and gold foil decoration anyway, just like with modern furisode with embroidery and gold foiling (Japanese embroidery often includes paper forms under larger shapes and these can't be cleaned, by dry cleaning or by washing). Also, the rearranging of panels only works on garments with designs like komon. If you have a look at the scans I posted earlier, almost all those fabric designs wouldn't work if rearranged. I think she has been confusing cleaning/remaking information relating to everyday clothing and lower class clothing with kosode as worn by the upper and wealthy classes. A major reason why (modern) garments like furisode, tomesode and houmongi are classed as formal is precicely because the patterns are dyed/embroidered so the garment panels can't be remade in a different order without everyone knowing they have!
:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:55 am 
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Thanks for taking the time to check into the hearsay I was given. Sadly, a freind used their phone to take pics, so I have no copy to offer right now. While getting the right look for the the courtesan was the best I could do in the time I left myself to work with, I would still like to try to figure out how to be 100% accurate with future costuming I do for historical events.

Thanks to photos from this post, I have chosen fabric for hakama as a future project in a nice wine shade. With better information on the width of fabric and photos of both flat and on body clothing WITH DATES, I can start looking into changing my modern kimono measurements to make better layers then what I had. I also have a better ideal of what motifs were available, and will be watching for promising materials.


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:08 pm 
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I LOVE THIS FORUM....!! :katana:
Takenoko, you like saved me a hell of research-time...!
I searched like mad through everything to find some information about Muromachi-kitsuke

Image
because of this.
And somehow nothing did fit..
Now I like.. want to kiss your feet, because.. Now I know how it should look in reality.. ... (I just wanted to open/reply to another thread.. when I found this...)
I'm so happy.. I'm so glad to know on which parts the artist wasn't detailed enough, so everything will be done properly... something inside of me did screm "this isn't just a skirt..!"


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:34 am 
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peachchanvidel wrote:
I LOVE THIS FORUM....!! :katana:
Takenoko, you like saved me a hell of research-time...!
I searched like mad through everything to find some information about Muromachi-kitsuke
(IMAGE REMOOOOOOOVED)
because of this.
And somehow nothing did fit..
Now I like.. want to kiss your feet, because.. Now I know how it should look in reality.. ... (I just wanted to open/reply to another thread.. when I found this...)
I'm so happy.. I'm so glad to know on which parts the artist wasn't detailed enough, so everything will be done properly... something inside of me did screm "this isn't just a skirt..!"


I've gotta know- what manga is that? I like historical stuff- even historical manga- and it looks kind of interesting. :S /ot

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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:58 am 
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I second peachchanvidel and SuperGrouper, this is a great thread and very usefull,..... and also which Manga is that?
I started collecting Kimono as part of my research for the historical stuff, and then found that what is worn now is quite different to even Edo styles. Different enough that you cannot really wear modern Kimono for Historical roles!


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 am 
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SuperGrouper wrote:
I've gotta know- what manga is that? I like historical stuff- even historical manga- and it looks kind of interesting. :S /ot


Kamisama Hajimemashita/Kamisama Kiss

It's not all that historical, but well.. it's fun to read and the kimono they sometimes wear are awesome :3


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 Post subject: Re: Please Help With Fashion History
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:40 am 
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i finally figured out what's going on with this whole loom size thing. included is me in a vintage furisode that's just long enough to dress post edo style, but in this image, i dressed it junihito style over a home made under layer that's meant to prevent it from dragging. i also have the full kosode/hakama underneath.

first, the theory that people were skinny back then is a load of dung. the SCA would like to keep telling me that the white rice the country lived on back then caused everyone to be malnourished. the fact is A) polished rice was not available till the 1700's and B) if you look at the sacred Shinto text around 800, there were FIVE scared grains, so rice is not the only starch.

also, the SCA insists that sumo is modern. the shintoist on the other hand can document that back to the nara period, meaning that we can prove that all of japan was not stick thin. look at the painting i shared again, and you will see there are double chins.

additionally, while i was refitting one of my kimono, i realized that though there was a half panel okumi, at least half or more of the actual width is swallowed by the way it was set to make the garment more manageable for modern dressing. since i often get kimonos that have at least an inch if not more seam allowance in the body and still have to scale down, on MY frame, opening them to the widest dementions will leave me with a huge garment that has enough okumi to fold back on itself. then again, my frame works best in vintage clothing in general

further, what nobody tells you up front is that in order to get the collar to fall right in the junihito layers is to make pleats in the back of the robes as you dress them to suck up the extra volume. on my frame, with modern kimono, there is plenty of cloth to make the back pleats and set the collar where i want it.

oh, and the obi we don't talk about. to get the hakama/nakabakama up under the bust, you need at least a 3 inch obi to tie the hakama on top of, otherwise, the waist will travel. this means the base kosode is dressed rather like the yukata, but with no tuck at the hip, and alters how that first collar sits.

my point? the only reason for a 17 inch panel that makes sense is if the bodies it was made for were quite a bit wider than what we are told. my full figured sister would need more cloth than i do to get the same effect, even though she's only 5'2. so, what really changed? sleeves. the rest was working fine for so long, why tamper with a good thing.http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t289/noxlumen/furisode_zps721e0be5.jpg


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