I dont want anybody to jump down my throat sort of speak as Ive told you Im really new at learning about geishas and geisha culture.

Im currently reading "autobiography of a geisha" by sayo musoda.
Are geishas prostitutes? I never thought they were until I started to read this book.
Can anybody clear this up?

I dont want to offend anybody

XOXOXO

no geisha arnt prostitutes. read mineko iwasaki's autobiography and geisha by liza dalby that will help clear some bits up

No, they are not. I suppose the practice of mizuage could count as "prostitution" but geisha were never licensed prostitutes. In fact, when the geisha started becoming popular in the 1800s, the courtesans threw such a fit that the geisha were forbidden by the government to practice prostitution.

Now, one must remember that a) the Japanese look at sex in a much different way than westerners do and b) geisha are women and women do have sexual urges. It would not be completely unheard of for a geisha to have a sexual relationship with a customer, but it would likely be a consensual arrangement, comparable to a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, I guess. Geisha lovers have been the root of scandal in Japanese society before. And also remember that the geisha community does not only serve men. Geisha are seeing an increasing numebr of female customers. And, the geisha spend so much time at class, making obligatory visits to okiya and teahouses, and entertaining at ozashiki, they wouldn't have time to sell sex even if they wanted to!

I would recommend "Geisha, A Life" by Mineko Iwasaki and "Women of the Pleasure Quarters" by Leslie Downer for more information on the subject. There are also some useful threads about the geisha, misconceptions about them, and sex all over the boards (mostly concentrated in the Geisha & Maiko and the Memoirs of a Geisha subforums.) A lot of people here are very knowledgable so I hope they can clear up any questions you have.

EDIT: "Autobiography of a Geisha" is about an onsen geisha, who are often confused with prostitutes because they do not really have the same pedigree as Kyoto or Tokyo geisha. However, I'm not very well educated on the hotsprings geisha or their lifestyles so sometone else will have to give you more info on that.

A long time ago, about one century, geisha, even from reputed hanamachi, did sleep with their clients. This was more or less restricted to their patron, but the okasan wishing to keep good clients did put pressure on their girls to sleep with them -considering the geisha were sold as young girls and had to pay off their debt, this didn't prove difficult. I do not know if Gion, for example, did the same, but I would personally bet they did. For example, Dalby mentions her okasan (Pontochô) going through mizuage in the 30's. I guess the practice more or less died out with WWII.

The geisha whose memoirs I base my opinion on, born in 1892, was from a top hanamachi in Kanazawa, and she said her okiya was of the first rank out of the 3 in the hanamachi. She explicitly mentions another quarter as the brothels one, so she was indeed a real, classy geisha, not a prostitute. It seems Kanazawa geisha were considered on par with those of Kyoto or Osaka, on the west coast. The most famous of them had clients coming on purpose from Tokyo or Nagoya, and was supposed to have the Finances minister as a lover.
She still slept with clients, her danna of course, but also plain clients before she got her official danna. Having a face paralysis shortly after her mizuage, she had to compensate her lack of zashiki income by accepting more of them than usual. However, after getting a danna, geisha were supposed to have sex only with him.

Not really anything to add. But I was wondering where you read this? Was it a book? It sounds interesting.

It was mentioned a few times before. It hasn't been translated in English, the French title is "Mémoires d'une geisha" written by INOUE Yuki (Japanese: Kuruwa no onna.)

If I recall the novel properly, Sayo Masuda was a bathhouse "geisha", which was a kind of serving girl at a bathhouse/restaurant that was pressured into sex at times to increase the facility's popularity. She also was not living in Kyoto where what are known as classic geisha live, so you don't really know the rules and taboos associated with geisha living outside Kyoto circles all that much.

Also in the 1940s during the occupation a lot of girls became "geesha girls" which was only a front for blatant prostitution.

It's really a confusing thing because of the whole "danna"/patron business as well as the infamy of the geesha girls in the 40s.

^^looks at the last two posts

Is that about the same two books? o.O

If not, I'd be willing to break out my french books again to read it. Or at least attempt to. I've wondered why there seems to be a thriving Kimono and antiquities trade in Kanazawa. I had no idea there was a geisha population there at one time. Whoops.

The one she's talking about is Sayo Masuda's "Autobiography of a Geisha"

There still is a geisha population in Kanazawa, as far as I know. I think Hanami spends some time there (or has) and would therefore be more knowledgeable. When I visited in 2006, I think the guy I talked to at a little "museum" (really, one small floor of a house in one of the wards) said there were about 80 practicing at that time.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread about it somewhere here; a search should turn it up (a thread on Kanazawa geisha, or geisha not in Tokyo/Kyoto).

I know there is a Geisha district in Kanazawa called Higashi Chaya-gai. I don't know if there's another one though.

Yes, geisha tradition survives there, but only as city-sponsored cultural representations. I think Dalby actually mentioned it, without giving the name of the city (in the middle of the sub-chapter named: "Wives versus geisha")
I believe Downer might have visited Kanazawa as well, but I had read her book only once, over 3 years ago.

There used to be two geisha districts in Kanazawa, Higashi-kuruwa and Nishi-kuruwa: the East district and the West district; I remember those from Osaka were named, in a swirl of originality, Minami-shinchi and Kita-shinchi, too. The brothels quarter in Kanazawa was Sanban-machi.

Kanazawa was an important provincial capital, famous for it's artistic endeavous: gold crafts, silks, and yûzen dying (sp?) It also was a large military base, especially during "Suzumi"'s apprenticeship that took place under the Russian-Japanese war.
The geisha took lessons with masters from Kyoto; the author mentions Higashi-kuruwa geisha had adopted the Wakayanagi school of dancing. I wonder how closely related it is to the Wakayagi (as is printed in Komomo's book) school used by today's geisha from Miyagawachô?

I developed these examples to show that Kanazawa geisha certainly weren't onsen ones, but that their profession still had overt sexual aspects; as I said before, I have little doubt it was the case for all hanamachi at that time.

Nowadays, I do not think geisha have sex with their clients, or that if they do, it is on an interpersonal basis and not as, indeed, clients. Even in Kanazawa, the old former geisha turned Okasan said many women from good families had to work after WWII, and chose to become geisha; but since laws abolished all the contract sellings and debts to be paid through work, they had far more individual liberty. They also had a better academic education than the little girls who frequented only the Nyokoba from the start, with little emphasis on reading 'n writing, and more on dance and music.
As a result of education and freedom of choice, along with the rupture with ancient ways caused by the war and US occupation, they could pick out the most unsavoury "traditional" aspects of the profession, and state that, for example, they "would never accept such a thing as mizuage."

I think it is just as silly to pretend such things never took place as to affirm modern geisha are refined, exotic prostitutes. I'm not really fond of the image Mineko tries to give of the profession in her book, where everything is pure and chaste, and who presents the image of a geisha (I beg your pardon, a geiko) selling sexual favours as being as ridiculous as that of a nun doing so. She does explain that, during the mizuage ceremony, the kanoko ribbon in a maiko's hair is symbolically cut, and that's the whole of it. She won't expand, for some reason, other than for saying young oiran did sell their virginity, but the maiko ceremony carrying the same name was and had always been "symbolic." Of what could it be the symbol, if not of defloration? I've never seen any "symbolic" significance that didn't use to be the real thing beforehand.

I'm going to sum up years of internal debate about this subject.

I think geisha were prostitutes, yes. Of course they weren't prostitutes in the way that we Americans think of pros, and there was less negative stigma with it than you'd think, so honestly, it's not so shameful imo. It's a cultural thing I guess.

Well, geisha do sell their company for money, which I guess would technically fall under prostitution, but it needs a much softer and wholesome word. Geisha are helping to keep old traditions alive, and to do that they need money.

They do not sell sex, though it was common practice to resort to that in areas hit by very hard times, as it would be in any country. Sayo Masuda is an example of this. Today, geisha don't have sex with their guests or patrons, though they ARE human and can choose to carry on a relationship if they want, but I think this usually results in retirement from the profession.

The stigma of geisha being prostitutes has a lot to do with WW2 and cultural differences between East and West; it's can be hard for the Western mind to grasp that a man would want to pay just to hang out with a woman, but geisha aren't just any women. They're trained to create a certain atmosphere and they are expected to be very well-read and intelligent and in the loop with all sorts of things (for example, global economy).

Don't feel embarrassed about asking! If you don't ask, you'll never know, and everyone here is very kind and helpful.

Nowhere does selling your skills and presence for money fall under the definition of prostitution Otherwise, not only would a top model be "technically" a prostitute, but a maths student offering courses for high-school teens would be whoring too. In Japan, prostitution is even restricted to vaginal intercourse only.

Geisha can very well have a relationship with someone, client or not, without having to retire; it is to get married that imposes to quit. Of course, even nowadays, marriage is much more of a clear-cut entity in Japan than in the developed occidental countries; this entity carries a lot of obligations incompatible with the status of geisha. (from Dalby and other sources about marriage)

I agree that the usual image of the geisha girl in America and all of Occident has a lot to do with prostitutes claiming to have more skills than they had, but geisha before WWII were supposed to have sex with their client(s,) and these clients expected it. Each geisha house (once again, in Kanazawa, but I have had hints it was the custom elsewhere too) had one house prostitute, who took care of most of the "desperate need" of the geisha's clients.
Geisha were indeed better learned in their arts than their prostitute sisters, but this in itself isn't incompatible with being paid for sex: Tayû and oiran, from the prostitution quarters, were at least as well learned in music, literature and arts than the geisha -up to the time when geisha started to be more in demand for these matters. Geisha, as side-products of the pleasure quarters, started to rise as an independent entity while tayû & Cie faded out of fashion.

I'm not sure either modern geisha are asked to be in the loop (or at least to talk with their clients) about global economy and such hot matters; it might have changed since Dalby did her study, but part of the karyukai's charm is the relieve it provides from everyday preoccupations. Even old and straight-forward geiko wouldn't think of discussing the stock-exchange market with their clients -no matter how vital it is for their own finances. At the time Dalby wrote about this (late 70's,) maiko were already required to complete secondary education, just as they are now, but I think the domains with which they have to keep in touch professionally are more in the cultural realms than in the political and economical ones.

I would guess that being so secluded and immersed in their lessons, a new twist in ikebana fashion would be much more relevant to them than an alliance between the Environment minister and an industrial coalition -even if they witnessed said alliance at a zashiki two week earlier. Having a policy of discussing their involvement in political or economic domains with the very shapers of it, and thus collecting information relevant to them personally, would also challenge their neutrality and the secrecy they must maintain about their zashiki -as well as the trust their clients need to have in them for their role to continue to be meaningful.

Well, they WERE prostitutes, no doubt about it.

I have spent a significant amount of in the hanamachi (granted only 1/5, but still), and from what I know about the maiko and their personalities, those girls are pure as the driven snow, or at least as pure as when they arrived in Kyoto in the first place.

Also, there is NO way that an okaasan would green light a prozzie-esque relationship with a client for fear of breaking the law, at least not with a maiko. Geiko are more independent than most of us would guess, and there have got to be more than a handful who have a significant relationship with a client, but that's totally normal. I just don't think the idea of money crossing hands for sex is ever a part of the equation anymore.

You confirm in whole my opinion about modern geisha, which I had constructed almost exclusively from my readings. Thank you, first-hand knowledge is invaluable (and hard to get by.)
I do wonder about those few geiko who still have a danna, and how sex enters in the relationship. It might be that the only circumstances in which it happens nowadays is when a client-become-lover is so deeply involved with his sweetheart he wishes to support her financially, and decides to do so within the frame of karyukai customs. This is pure speculation on my part, of course, The only titbits of information I have are from Dalby's "Geisha" and Shigatsuhana reporting Fumiyuu saying danna relationships have become very rare.

I don't think it's anywhere near as cut and dried as this.

I know that Miyagawa-cho used to be a prostitution district, but was made into a geisha district after prostitution was made illegal. The others...it's like you said, it's not so simple as that. Geisha hanamachi and yujo hanamachi had a lot of rigid laws and regulations regarding their services and their areas of business back in the day, and they were quite separated. While geisha may have had a mizuage ceremony and a possible danna, they did not sell their bodies for sex the way that yujo did; in fact, doing so would have been illegal, as they were working in a different district and therefore providing different services.

I thought Miyagawachô was actually a geisha quarter, though not as classy than Gion (which used not to be divided.) Since it was less upscale, the kind of sex over there was probably available to less upscale people, and thus more easy to come by, fuelling it's reputation as a "loose" place.
To the best of my knowledge, Shimabara was the only official prostitution quarter in Kyoto, though prostitution, legal and not, went on in the other hanamachi too. Even Osaka or the much-larger Tokyo each had only one red-light district. Saikaku at least only ever mentions Shimabara went writing about Kyoto.


Edit: I meant Saikaku, not Kafû. I changed the post accordingly.

Plus, according to Dalby at least, geisha were explicitly and legally differentiated from prostitutes as early as the late 1700s.

I think this is clear, but maybe what Desertlily meant is that Miyagawachô used to be a brothels quarter up to WWII (even those employed some geisha) but changed it's official status when prostitution was banned. It is the first time I hear or read about it, but would be possible. It makes me wonder why Shimabara wouldn't have done so if it was possible.

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry, I pulled an all-nighter last night so I'm not thinking straight, lol.

The way it was described in Dalby's book was that they engaged in "double registration" - they were geisha, but also were involved in prostitution. I didn't mean to say that it was a licensed prostitution quarter like Shimabara (I'm pretty sure Shimabara was the only one, like you said), so thanks for catching that for me.

I think that if you call a "prostitution quarter" any pleasures quarter in which prostitution went on, then all hanamachi could have been tagged as such. Miyagawachô and it's "nimae kansatsu" makes me wonder how the transition was made, in how many years, and what time the different hanamachi needed to make it. Don't forget that when Dalby was there, the ban was barely 20 years old, and geisha having started their apprenticeship right at that time would have been in their mid-thirties at most, and still working.

I'm certain it took longer to be applied in the least classy quarters, because clients with a lower income wouldn't frequent the karyukai as much, and the geisha still needed to make money and incite them to come back, so accepted more dubious assignments.
The movie "Gion Bayashi" is a good illustration of the transition, but I guess it is off YouTube since I've seen it, considering it is actually copyrighted material.
Naomi-san certainly wouldn't be happy to see some violation like that on her website!

Modern geisha like to pretend that maikos' virginity was never sold, and that geisha never slept with anyone for money, but honestly those were different times and different social morality. As others have said it really depended on the district and the 'quality' of the geisha.

Nowadays their roles are completely different from what they were a hundred years ago - back then they were the premier entertainers and sexy arbiters of style, while now they're respected curators of Japanese tradition.

In Lesley Downer's biography of Sadayakko (an Edo geisha in the late 1890s), Yakko's granddaughter has a document regarding her mizuage by the prime minister of the day (which was seen as very prestigious).

You have to look at Japanese history in a more general context. Historically geisha lived in the pleasure quarters. They hardly ever got out of there and the pleasure quarters had a large fence around them and guards at the gates.

Why?

Because the Tokugawa government controlled it.

Even better, the Tokugawa were smart enough to tax the pleasure quarters. Having the fence around them and the guards at the gates certainly helped with collecting taxes there.

Now, imagine you have a young girl, some time in, let's say... 1802 (random) and she ends up in... let's say... the pleasure quarter of Edo for whatever reason. The debt she would have when she eventually ends up as a geisha would be incredibly high for a peasant girl like her (and no, we don't really see daughters of daimyo, fudai or hatamoto in the pleasure quarters; though, the daughter of a low ranking samurai, who -maybe- was convicted of some crime or maybe simply impoverished, well... she might end up in the pleasure quarters as punishment or as a way to simply make a living, it's a possibility, albeit not something that'd happen often.) What will she do? Some, certainly, worked their way up and enjoyed the position of power they'd have should they be talented and ruthless enough to reach that point. But others would try to get out as quick as possible. How to achieve that? You can't flee. The government would catch you and then they'd drag you back where you'd get punished. So, in case you want to get out of the pleasure quarters alive (that is, if suicide is not an option) you have only one choice: make money, pay off your debt. Again, some may have remained the good girls, being good little geisha, focusing on dance and singing. But I'm sure there were geisha who had no qualms with selling more than just artistic skills, dancing and music. Remember, people are different and different people react differently in different situations.

The question for me in that last case is: how legal would it have been? I mean, the government controlled it all. I guess as long as the local officialls got what they wanted nobody cared. What did they want? Well... let me just say that the Tokugawa government was one hell of a swamp of corruption. Bribes, of course. And these bribes could, again, have been plenty of things.

But, let's face it. How would a young geisha bribe an old Tokugawa official? With money? Please... he'd get enough of that from the other people who bribe him.

Let me put the line here. I wouldn't even say that geisha, as a whole, were prostitutes. The local samurai and merchants had the courtesans for their regular dose of "horizontal refreshment". But I'm pretty sure that, given how many geisha the pleasure quarters had in the Edo period, there has been a certain amount who sold more than just singing and dancing. And I wouldn't be surprised if one or two geisha actually used the "pillowing" as a weapon to fight their competition inside the pleasure quarters. You know that men are, usually, pigs. "You see, Kojiro-dono, you really have to visit the geisha Setsuhana (random name), as she offers special services that the other girls don't." With that Setsuhana would, possibly, get more customers and make more money and money... is power.

Different people react differently in different situations...

And let's not forget... with corruption in the government "rumor warfare" comes as well. So the bribing and blackmailing could have gone both sides. Or... one Tokugawa official is jealous of, let's say, a daimyo. He hires a geisha to get closer to that daimyo because she's the type of woman the daimyo likes. And some people talk in their sleep... You see where I'm going with this?

That said, I'd also say that the pleasure quarters were yet another battlefield of politics in feudal Japan.

Can we put out a general statement about this?

Not really. Sorry. We can only assume that some were like that, while others weren't and simply base this on the simple fact that humans are, well, humans.

Of course, with the Meiji restoration things change somewhat. Certain western ideals arrive in the country. With that sexuality, for example, gets pretty much shafted.

Whoa, I'm ranting. Stop me.

Geisha didn't live in the licensed quarters, or if they did they weren't prisoners there like the prostitutes, and again, they were legally and professionally distinct from prostitutes. Also, while prostitutes were held in indentured servitude, or debt bondage (meaning that they were sold into the profession and accumulated a debt they were supposed to pay off through their work), geisha either weren't, or were in much less debt from the start.

As Dalby says:



We also have to remember that geisha appeared and flourished in times (late Edo to early Meiji) when socio-economic and political options for all women were extremely limited. Not only were the possibilities for any woman in those time periods very few and tightly restricted, but there were also entirely different ways of understanding and of seeing the world.

All things considered, we can probably never get close to a yes or no answer. The best we can probably do is to say:

-- Early geisha weren't considered prostitutes, though they may have engaged in certain activities we would now think of as prostitution.
-- Historically, some women who called themselves or were known as geisha were prostitutes.
-- Some contemporary women who call themselves or are known as geisha (such as onsen geisha) may be prostitutes.
-- Contemporary geisha (licensed artists such as those in the geisha districts in Kyoto) are not prostitutes.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything that has been said here. Traditional Japanese values regarding sexuality are very different from Western values.

Still, it's hard to imagine getting frisky with all those layers of clothing on. Of course, nudity in Japan is regarded differently then in America.

Much less debt? No offense, but we're talking about several ryo, and not just a couple of monme or zeni. Kimono, training, education, that'd roll up a nice debt one way or the other. One or two hundred ryo? I wouldn't be surprised if the average geisha in the Edo period would end with such a debt. Even "just" 50 ryo would be an incredible sum for a peasant girl. One way or the other she would have a debt. No way around that, nobody would train a geisha for free. Nobody would do that. It'd take her a long time to work off "just" 50 ryo.

One ryo is approximately four koku, and one koku, in theory, is enough to feed one man for one year. 50 ryo (200 koku)were a lot of money for low ranking people like the girls who ended up as geisha or courtesan.

Geisha, in the Edo period, would have to live in the quarters. What other choice would they have? You don't really think that the Tokugawa regime would just turn a blind eye and let them stroll about in the towns? Besides, having all those women in the quarters makes taxing them easier. Where would they operate from outside the pleasure quarters? There were no facitilies to hold them. You had the pleasure quarters, then the town with inns, shops, the samurai, etc. Maybe a geisha could operate from an inn, surely, if she managed to bribe someone. But how long would that have worked? And all of them? Hardly. Of course, she would get out of the quarters easier for certain events, agreed, there they had more freedom of movement than the average courtesan. But that would be about it.

Remember, this is Tokugawa controlled Japan we're talking about. The Tokugawa were a military regime. The Tokugawa enforced their laws and when I say "enforced" I mean enforced with actual, real force. You wouldn't want to break the laws in Edo period Japan under the Tokugawa. Trust me, you wouldn't want to.

But you're right James. We won't get a yes or no answer, ever. Impossible. Too many factors to consider.

As for Liz Dalby, yes, she's pretty much THE capacity on geisha in the west, no doubt about that. Her work on contemporary geisha within a certain timeframe is magnificent and I absolutely respect her for it, but she's an anthropologist, not a historian. She studied contemporary geisha in the 70s, but not the development of the pleasure quarters in Kyoto in the Genroku period (which is a task for a historian, not an anthropologist.) As I said, she has my respects for what she achieved and what she did. That takes a lot of dedication. Chapeau.

But you know folks, this gives me an idea. This whole topic really fires a broadside into my preferred research area in Japanology. Gender studies and history... So...

Development of the pleasure quarters of Edo in the Genroku period (Edo period Kyoto was not really important, so there's no way I'll deal with it!)... well... I guess I have a theme for my doctorate... Bit early for it, but you know what they say about the early bird and worm, right?

Or... another interesting idea... the pleasure quarters of Nagasaki during the Edo period and their development. Hmmm...

Stop giving me ideas people. Really!

My theory is on the mizuage pre-1950s.

You've got all these fees, tuition, new kimono, katsura (or new hairstyle back when they didn't use wigs) and all this.....STUFF you needed money for. Anyone here pay for a $200,000 wedding ceremony? Anyone? No? So....

Also, a girl having sex the first time kinda changed her status to "adult" since maiko could not often get married, stay as geisha, and still work. (You can't count Saddayakko, guys. She left her house, married her first husband, then made a name for herself in the Western Hemisphere.) Nowadays, emphasis is placed on when a maiko has learned and accomplished enough to graduate to geisha status.

I think pre-1950s geisha may have provided "Smexytime" mizuage when in financial straits...think about it folks. How many thousands geisha were around in the Taisho Era, even? -and how many are there now? Back then, there was a hell of a competition. There were a lot more struggling geisha. Even now in this shiteous economy, but with far less competition maiko and geisha stand down and drop like flies, and I (merely) suspect it's because of finances. So I think the equation fits for the geisha of the Post WWII Era. But to me the importance lies in how they were to master so many different arts at any given time. Not smexytimez.

Based on my reading, and those I've spoken with, I'd say *ding*. Tahanala and Ewoodham or on the right path. Tahanala you're beginning to scare me with the speed of your absorption of knowledge!!!!! (I mean that in a good way), and Ewoodham....I'm beginning to wonder what she DOESN'T know!

-But hey, if I turn out to be wrong or yada yada, then I apologize, after all it is only my opinion.

The discussion in this thread is fascinating. I've spent a lot of time pondering where the line is drawn and what constitutes prostitution. Obviously geisha in the past (and maybe somewhat today, more on this in a minute) have traded sexual favors for some kind of compensation, but they have always been considered "not prostitutes".

Take the example of a high-class modern geisha with a danna. He supports her financially, and she has sex with him. Does it matter if they love each other? If they are close friends who share the same interests or have overlapping professions? Does it matter if one of them is only in it for status, money or "fun"? If the relationship has been formalized with a ceremony as it was in the past? Does it matter if he is married or otherwise committed to someone else? If she has a lover on the side, but stays with the danna for whatever reason does that make a difference?

I think about these things because I am a stay-at-home mother with no income of my own. My husband pays for everything, including my nihon buyo lessons and the occasional kimono purchase. We joke that marriage is really a form of contractual prostitution. I know plenty of women who married for money or status or some other benefit, or who remained in awful marriages for the same reasons. A "shotgun wedding" is essentially a marriage for status, because most societies scorn unwed mothers. Also consider marriages for citizenship, and staying with your spouse for his or her health insurance benefits...

The definition of prostitution is "sexual activity for payment". So, any sexual relationship where resources are exchanged or compensation occurs may qualify.

I think there is another aspect to take into account: the ultimate motivation behind the contract (be it marriage or danna-relationship, etc.)

If money is the main aim, and the man a mere interchangeable mean, then I'd consider it to be closer to prostitution. The main step in that direction, however, is when the man's (or payer, you can have male prostitutes as well as gigolos) compensation in the deal consists of sexual or sensual favours.
Likewise, a situation where the man's main aim is sex, and the woman's, status, security, or assimilated aspects, would be close to prostitution as well. (But whose?)

Whenever the provider is more important than his providings, then I wouldn't call it prostitution, nor anything bordering on it. It matters not that he's the one allowing this material security, because human being aren't defined by such needs. It is the emotional ones for which he cares that count, and that cannot be bough by money.

Of course, push-and-pull happens in every situation, and basic material needs are fundamental, so there can be an asymmetry even in the most consensual relationship. Sex is an important emotional need for all humans.
This is why I put emphasis on the goal of the relationship rather than on its means.

(So basically, if there is something noble about the relationship, then sex is alright, but if a low materialistic needs drives it, then it is naughty and prostitution. Thank you, Western judeo-christian morality! It sure is the right frame to analyse traditional Japanese ways of thinking.)


Concerning the nature of danna-relationships today, I wonder how much of those are cold business deals: "I provide you with the money necessary to maintain you lifestyle and ideals, and you provide me, not with sex per se because I can have that from anyone, but with the status obtained through having a geisha beholden to me." Of course, moral obligations are so compelling in Japan, even today, that the line between friendly reciprocation and binding obligation is fuzzier than for us Westerners.

In the past, there was no doubt about the obligation under which geisha were to obey their danna. All geisha had one, and they were designated by the very okâsans to which the geisha owed their contract money. Having an influent danna (and money is influence) was prestigious, and guaranteed financial ease to the geisha as well as status, but they certainly weren't allowed choice in this regard. Things began to change in Taishô or early Shôwa, bu up to then, geisha didn't have a word in the choice of their mizuage client, nor in that of their danna.
The geisha to whose memoirs I referred once begged her danna to "free" her from their relationship, and got beaten for her insolence. Of course, the danna's reputation was probably damaged for having beaten his top-notch mistress, but would have been far more ridiculed if his prestigious geisha had dumped him.

I draw the line of prostitution about at whether the money/status/other is buying only sexual and/or other sensual favours, and if the arrangement is established and/or public. A whore is free to find another trick and never introduced to mother...

A convenience marriage (or a couple of home wife, working husband) is thus not prostitution since the woman is not only opening her legs but also committing to being socially bound to the man, possibly carrying children, housekeeping etc. The husband also is not only providing money but also other types of support. Marriage is long-term and also public, and even supported by law.

Thus, according to my views, a long-term courtship consisting of frequent, one-sided presenting of gifts and dinners and whatnot is also prostitution — if the couple shares little else, their dates being no more than prelude for sex or a form of complex foreplay and so on. Even more clearly prostitution if one or both of them has simultaneously other relationships/dates/lays. Note that sex and amusement can also be considered as payment...

A courtesan would not be a whore even if her paid services included sex, since if a true courtesan, her company would also be a status symbol for a man. A courtesan's position would be at least semi-public as her job would indeed include publicly appearing with her supporter.

So, a geisha/danna relationship is not prostitution. (Public, established, excluding (= only one danna at a time).) A geisha/random customer who wants to pay for sex would be. (Private and occasional. Not excluding.)

This is an amazing thread, everyone...

Musashi, if you're interested in that time period and haven't read this book yet, might I suggest Cecilia Segawa Seigle's Yoshiwara: The Glittering World of the Japanese Courtesan? Actually, I'd encourage anyone here interested in this topic to read it, because, although the focus is on the Yoshiwara and the oiran, it does deal with the birthplace of some of the traditions that geisha inherited, and there's an entire chapter titled "Rise of the Geisha," which deals with the rise of the female geisha and decreasing popularity of the courtesans. It's a supplement rather than an end-all be-all of the matter, of course, specifically in regard to this topic, but I think it's interesting to get another point of view into the discussion considering most of the other books are either by or about geisha, and although they all address the roots of the profession, they don't go into quite the context that Seigle's book provides. I find Seigle's level of research and her insights into the subject on par with Dalby and Downer, easily.

Seigle discusses the appearance of geisha in the Yoshiwara with the rise of popularity of the shamisen in the pleasure quarters, since the highest class courtesans considered themselves above playing shamisen (though lower class courtesans could play)... and then mentions odoriko, dancing girls, some of whom earlier on might have even been from a daimyo's family. (Of course, we can all guess how long that "purity of purpose" lasted... and how many of them wound up practicing a little bit "on the side", huh?) Even in Japan during that time period, there was some confusion between the title of geisha and odoriko, and Seigle has a subsection devoted to discussing the mizuage. For purposes of citation and future reference, I'm looking specifically at pages 170-181, for those interested.

I think my opinion closely follows James's, on this, and I apologize for being a bit late to the party, but wanted to put that out there in case anyone wants to do any further reading.

(And, for the record, as much as I enjoy Iwasaki-san's book, I did think she doth protested too much in defending the status of the geisha as non-prostitutes. I know she did it in an attempt to make the occupation more palatable to a Western audience, but still... History pretty much points to the fact that some geisha, pre-WWII, did engage in prostitution, even though modern geisha do not. Circumstances and morals were just different.)

... (And next time I write a paragraph of that size, I'll leave out the parentheses. It's late, I'm tired? Will stop typing now. )

Peccantis, I like your reasoning.