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Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy) http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13532	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Tahanala [ Fri May 15, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
I wished several times to be able to find from which okiya a maiko was, from her obi, but never found a comprehensive list of the mon. I have used Momoyama's list of Gion Kobu okiya and the maiko who live there, so basically, I almost have only Gion Kobu okiya mon, and only those who have maiko. Corrections are welcome, and I'll add any additional okiya you could provide. I'd also like to make a map of the okiya locations, but for this I wouldn't know where to start. Many thanks to Peccantis who has cropped each picture to downloadable size. Gion Kobu きねや Kineya: Wisteria (fuji) Hinazuru, now retired. I think there are no maiko currently in this okiya. つる居 Tsurui: Chinese bellflower (kikyo) mon (Kyouka, Sayaka 美の八重 Mi no Yae: Butterfly (chocho) (Marie, Makino, Mahiro) 柴田 Shibata: Kikyo: Mamemaru*, Mameyuri 桝梅 Masuume: Japanese ivy (tsuta) Here I'm not certain it is the right mon, it seems to have been spotted on Kokimi, a retired onesan to Konomi. You can distinguish a mon very alike on Kotomi here. 中支志 Nakagishi: Tsuta (but here the angles aren't as harsh.) Koyoshi Ichiwaka 新井 Arai: Kikyo Mamesaku*, Mamefusa, Mametomi 貝田 Kaida: Water chestnut (hanabishi) Takahina, Takamari, Takasuzu 小田本 Odamoto: (I don't know what the mon is, but I'm certain to have seen it somewhere else, more clearly) Katsumi , Ayakazu , Katsuyuki (First photo is Katsufumi, now a geiko, in the middle) From the large version, it seems to be bamboo and some three-flower thingy... イ Ninben: Hanabishi Mamesome, Mamehana, Mamechiho 多麻 Tama: Paulownia (kiri) Mameharu, Manaha, Tsuruha, Mameteru, Yasuha, Wakana Another version exists for the same okiya, with apparent leaf nervures. I think it might be used for formal obi: 西村 Nishimura: Oak leaves? (Kashiwa) Keiko, Sakiko Here is a better view of the mon: 廣島屋 Hiroshimaya: Chocho Kosen 福島 Fukushima: Chocho Ayano Gion Higashi Fukuya: Kashiwa in an hexagon (oak leaf) Kotomi Miharu Umeha Hinagiku Mariko Toyoji Tomikiku: I believe it represents three kikyo, cropped into a circle shape Tomitaka, Tomishizu (both retired) ???: Kikyo (more empty than the other ones) Kanoka in beige ???: Tsunemomo (now a geiko, here in dark blue.) It seems to have some flowers at the top: Pontochô ???: Stylised chocho? Ichifuku Miyagawa-chô Kaden : Perhaps kiri, tsuta or kudzu? I would guess tsuta, since the "antennas" could be vines. Komomo! Hanafusa: Kikyo Kikune, Kikuyû, Kikumaru, Kikutsuru, Kikuno, Kikuyumi & Kikumi (As of April 2008) Komaya: Hishi-kiri (?) - kiri shaped into a diamond (hishi) form Toshihana, Toshiteru, Toshiyui, Toshifumi, Toshichika, 川久 Kawahisa: Kikyo kanachisa, satoai, satotsuya, satono, satomi & satoka (needs to be updated!) よし冨美 Yoshifumi: Tsuta Fumisono, Fumihana, Fumimari and Fumitama Harutomi: Freestyle kiri 美恵雛: Miehina, 春京: Harukyo ???: Katabami (oxalis, often confused with clover) Kimichie, ??? Kamishichiken Umeno: ??? I think it is kiri, but has to be confirmed. Umeha ???: Tsuta Naokazu, ??? Daimonji: ??? Katsuho, Katsuru, and probably most of the katsu- line. Ichi: Hanabishi Ichimame, Ichiteru

Author:	Peccantis [ Fri May 15, 2009 11:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya
Thank you so much, I've been waiting and hoping for something like this for ages. But maybe the pictures could be cropped to only show the mon? The pictures take ages to load even at the school's moderate connection and all other parts of the pictures really aren't relevant in most parts of this thread...

Author:	Tahanala [ Fri May 15, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya
I thought of it, but cannot upload images from my computer these days (I don't know why.) If you can do it, you would be very welcome.

Author:	Tahanala [ Fri May 15, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Thank you so much for the cropping! In addition, we will still have the image even if the original poster takes his pictures off. Most of these are from Onihide, since I basically made a search by name and he always labels his maiko! It seems I have some more work for you (or anyone with time to spare and better Internet skills than mine!) I will go on adding images to the original post, so uncropped ones are likely to sprout out at any time. People knowing the name of an okiya and it's geisha are welcome to add too, even if I then have to hunt down an acceptable picture myself.

Author:	ewoodham [ Fri May 15, 2009 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Danka retired? ...what?

Author:	Ichiemi [ Fri May 15, 2009 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Danka isn't retired. She is still working as a Jikata Geiko. Also that mystery Gion Kobu Obi is on Ponto-cho Maiko Ichifuku.

Author:	Tahanala [ Fri May 15, 2009 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Thank you! I was under the impression that Danka had retired because I had found her name in a list of no-longer-working maiko and geiko. (Scroll down on the left.)

Author:	Ichiemi [ Fri May 15, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
I don't see where it says she is retired. Her blog is just listed...

Author:	Tahanala [ Fri May 15, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
I'm just blind, the list of what I assume are retired geisha is lower. At any rate, I have already changed the first post.

Author:	otokoshi [ Sat May 16, 2009 4:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
hello Good job! I am surprised to see someone else doing the same job as me jeje I also look for,the mons of okiya for Vectorizer many Mons repeat , for example okiya tsurui = okiya shibata, okiya arai kaida = ninben matta ne! gomen nasai my English hehehe done by a translator jejeje

Author:	ewoodham [ Sat May 16, 2009 4:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Maybe they are from the same root family? How does that work?

Author:	Tahanala [ Sat May 16, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
It is a possibility, but some mon are used by so many okiya in several hanamachi for it to be the only explication. I guess these mon are just widespread ones. Kikyo for one is used in Miyagawachô, Gion Kobu, and Gion Higashi; tsuta in Kamishichiken (with its insularised situation,) Gion Kobu, and Miyagawachô, hanabishi in Kamishichiken and Gion Kobu; and kiri in each of them except maybe Gion Higashi. Of course it doesn't mean okiya never get their mon from their mother house, just that other factors must be involved.

Author:	Yuna-chan [ Sat May 16, 2009 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Thanks, great job. Really interesting to see so many different ones.

Author:	KatyCrayon [ Sat May 16, 2009 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Here's a picture of an obi of Toshiyui's that I took: A picuture of my favorite obi of Toshiteru's: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8928219@N06/3525159972/ And a picture of Toshifumi, for good measure: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ericlty/575073881/ Can anyone tell me what the crest is supposed to be (it looks interesting) and the name of the okiya that the Toshi girls belong to?

Author:	Tahanala [ Sat May 16, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
This Toshiteru one is very clear, thank you! I'll use it as soon as I find out the name of her okiya. It is kiri arranged in diamond shape.

Author:	Ichiemi [ Sat May 16, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
All of the Toshi- girls live in Okiya Komaya. Kanoka is still an active Maiko, she's not retired. Gion Higashi Tomikiku: ??? Tomitaka, Tomishizu (both retired)

Author:	otokoshi [ Sat May 16, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Ichiemi wrote: All of the Toshi- girls live in Okiya Komaya. Kanoka is still an active Maiko, she's not retired. Gion Higashi Tomikiku: ??? Tomitaka, Tomishizu (both retired) yes is tomikiku "However, celebrating the debut of Maik who take" Tomi "in their names after ten years absence, TOMIKIKU" http://gion-east.jp/en/img/2008-51-ura.jpg

Author:	KatyCrayon [ Sat May 16, 2009 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Does anyone know, out of curiosity, when the practice of putting crests on the obi started and why? It seems that it must have started after WWII, becuase I have not seen it in vintage pictures of maiko. The designs always went straight to the bottom.

Author:	otokoshi [ Sat May 16, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Tama okiya has two mon maybe okiya tama and ochaya tama :S matta ne

Author:	hibana [ Sat May 16, 2009 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Otokoshi, those are the same mon. It's more formal to have the design of the mon filled in (as opposed to just outlined) which is why the white and gold obi is like that. edited to add: [quote=KatyCrayon]Does anyone know, out of curiosity, when the practice of putting crests on the obi started and why? It seems that it must have started after WWII, becuase I have not seen it in vintage pictures of maiko. The designs always went straight to the bottom.[/quote] Naomi-san has lots of pictures of pre-WWII maiko wearing crested obi. They weren't picky about which side the crested tail ended up, though. This maiko's obi appears un-crested, but I can't tell even with the zoom.

Author:	Ichiemi [ Sat May 16, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
otokoshi wrote: yes is tomikiku "However, celebrating the debut of Maik who take" Tomi "in their names after ten years absence, TOMIKIKU" http://gion-east.jp/en/img/2008-51-ura.jpg[/color] I know it's Tomikiku. The ??? is because I don't know what their Mon is.

Author:	Tahanala [ Sat May 16, 2009 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Thank you very much everyone! I edited the post with all the new (or corrected ) information. Here are a few mon I haven't been able to attribute yet: Fukue of Miyagawachô (same mon as that of the Kaden okiya -or is it it?): So is Kimika's: Double Kikyo, okiya of Fukusuzu, Fukunao, Fukuyoshi. Tanewaka's: kiri inscribed into a diamond (hishi), same as the mamemaki one below. Taneju's is kikyo. Miyofuku: Pontochô maiko This one is from Umechiyo of Kamishichiken, whose onesan is Umechika. May someone confirm they are in the Umeno okiya? (especially Umechiyo) What would be the mon of the Kamishichiken okiya Nakazato?

Author:	Tahanala [ Sat May 16, 2009 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
The Pontochô okiya with the kiri mon is the one Ichiraku is from. Here she was at 17 (2007), with a great gourd obi. We can see another (half) image of the stylised butterfly too!

Author:	Tahanala [ Sun May 17, 2009 12:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Kofuku's okiya is Shigemori. It's mon seems to be simple kikyo, from the image on her misedashi's obiage. Would someone have a nice picture of the mon, from someone who is in the same okiya for sure? Have you noticed how most maiko have a special obiage with their okiya's mon for their misedashi? Others don't though, even in the same hanamachi. Thank you!

Author:	Nanný [ Sun May 17, 2009 1:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
how do I se wich okiya a geiko belons to? or does they not belonge to an okiya when tey become geiko? Sorry for my bad English

Author:	Ichiemi [ Sun May 17, 2009 1:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
Nanný wrote: how do I se wich okiya a geiko belons to? or does they not belonge to an okiya when tey become geiko? Sorry for my bad English Some Geiko do and some don't. It all depends on if they have went independent or not. You can't tell by looking at the back of the obi, but sometimes you can if they are wearing a crested kimono. The way I normally tell is by looking at Okiya nameplates. Those will tell you who lives there.

Author:	KatyCrayon [ Sun May 17, 2009 4:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
hibana wrote: Naomi-san has lots of pictures of pre-WWII maiko wearing crested obi. They weren't picky about which side the crested tail ended up, though. Ah, I see. Most of the pictures I have seen must have shown the non-crestes side. Thank you, hibana!

Author:	Tahanala [ Sun May 17, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Images of the mon of each okiya (VERY image heavy)
I think geiko must be affiliated with an okiya, but maybe there are only the nameplates of the ones who actually live in it, maiko and young geiko. On the other hand, some nameplates have been spotted on several nameboards, so maybe independent geiko have their both on their okiya and their own house? As for the mon changing for independent geiko, Kotoha still lives in her okiya (I think!) and her erikae/shigyoushiki kimono had a different crest. I had read in a novel of Tokyo geisha who wore their danna's mon once they had one, but despite the good research the author did, I found no confirmation of this. It doesn't prove either that Kotoha would have a patron so early in her geiko career, since they are increasingly rare. I would like to list everyone in each okiya along with their mon, but it would be very time-consuming, even with the help of the dedicated thread.

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